Quote: valerie tietz-kelly

She definately sees herself higher in the pack than my PB, but always listens to my husband. He has never had to work as hard as me to assert himself over her. I'm thinking when we are together she doesn't know who the REAL leader is, so she is testing me???????? My husband is one of those natural leaders when it comes to dogs, any dogs. He just has this way. Not sure if it is size, he is an ex-body builder, naturally built, tall and very gentle in nature. I am the explosive one.....

I will try walking in front of the group and see what happens....keep ya posted

Maybe Jennifer Mullen will jump in and provide some insight. It seems to me like you're dealing with a pack structure issue. I think you're dead on. When you throw your boy into the mix she's in charge of something, and it's entirely possible that this is motivating her to behave differently.

An easy experiment would be taking her on a walk with just your husband, who she defers to. Find some situations like the ones you've described and see how she reacts to them. If the reaction is similar to her reaction when she's alone with you, I'd say that somehow having the male present is effecting her, and you need to teach her how to behave WHILE he's present, as well.

Another possibility is that she'll behave the same way with just you and him as she does with the whole pack. Walk it off, then hand him the leash and see how she does. She might look up to you alone, but that dynamic could be changed by a third, and stronger person entering the picture. I think it's a lot less likely than the first scenario.

Finally, it could just be plain old excitement. When she's JUST with you, it's a lot easier to focus on you and keep herself in check. But when she's got the energy of the pack, she's out there having fun, you're all walking together and she sounds pretty excitable. It's not far fetched to imagine that she's...and here's some anthropomorphizing for you...in a more "bouncy" mood. Because she isn't centered on you, but is having fun with a whole group, her level of excitement is elevated. And it's that much more difficult to think about how she should be, when something interesting approaches.

Just some thoughts. Test it out, see what sticks. Could ALL be wrong.

David -

My undergraduate degree is physics, so I love a good experiment!!!! I can't wait to try all of these and take the data. I will make my assessment and then throw the results out there for all you experts to disect. I can't wait for the weekend!!!!!!

Thank you

Just a side note here - people use the phrase "humanizing a dog" way too often. I don't think it's being used correctly in many cases. Just because a dog has a behavior that resembles a human behavior and we note it, doesn't mean we're humanizing the dog. Dogs do have behaviors that resemble human behaviors - it's just the way they are - they're not just pure instinctual creatures. It's dog behavior. They're very capable of having teasing, playful, mischievous, rambunctious, calm, excited, intelligent, curious, problem solving, sensitive, etc, behaviors. That's what a dog is.

We shouldn't be so concerned with giving dogs their due. To do less would be unfair and inaccurate.

 Quote: David Eagle

 Quote: Valerie Tietz-Kelly

She definately sees herself higher in the pack than my PB, but always listens to my husband. He has never had to work as hard as me to assert himself over her. I'm thinking when we are together she doesn't know who the REAL leader is, so she is testing me???????? My husband is one of those natural leaders when it comes to dogs, any dogs. He just has this way. Not sure if it is size, he is an ex-body builder, naturally built, tall and very gentle in nature. I am the explosive one.....

I will try walking in front of the group and see what happens....keep ya posted

Maybe Jennifer Mullen will jump in and provide some insight. It seems to me like you're dealing with a pack structure issue. I think you're dead on. When you throw your boy into the mix she's in charge of something, and it's entirely possible that this is motivating her to behave differently.

we're in trouble when i'm providing insight

i can see pack structure here as well. luc was a very easy dog for me to be pack leader of, teagan - was not. she's made me work for my position, and it's been a real learning experience. she has tested me, i had to prove myself worthy to her to get her to do anything. she's also dog/dominant aggressive (hopefully we've worked through the dominance aggression ).

that said - her behaviour is definitely different around luc, a dog who she is dominant over. and she will change her behaviour around him as a result of that, from small little things up to pack correcting him for behaviour he had displayed to me (which obviously was not allowed). she also is far more wilful around other dogs, in my opinion to showcase her dominance to them. i see all of this as pack structure issues - she's recently begun to defer to me far more in all situations, but the dominance display to luc/other dogs when i was around has been the last to go. maybe a similar thing is going on w/your girl.

i'm not at all an expert here, but having a dog who is also DA, how i read teagan is - it is very hard for her to give up control (so to speak) around another dog, i think her DA is a result of her being an 'alpha wanna-be' or 'testy status-seeking dog' (to sort of quote from the other end of the leash), and it's one thing for her to say to me 'okay, fine, i'll do what you ask' and another for her to display omega/submissive behaviour around another animal she wants to rank above, even if the behaviour is not in relation to that other animal. her drive to display dominant signals is really strong, and she can/will focus on it to the exclusion of everything around her.

the only other thing i can think is for a while with teagan, on some level, i expected her not to listen to me, and i know she picked up on that. i had to really work on changing what i projected. like alex suggested, that could be another thing.

....i don't know if any of that is helpful re: pack structure and leadership re: behaviour around other pack members and animals, but hopefully.

OK we had all kinds of walks this am in the SNOW.....

Makes no difference if I hold the leash with her, or my husband holds the leash with her, she is on auto pilot, calm (as calm as she gets) and well behaved.

Introduce my male, it does not matter if I have him or my husband has him - she acts out.

What is so telling is SHE HAS to be at least a nose IN FRONT of him at all times. If she is in the heel, she is constantly looking at him to see where he is, and she will even attempt to pull the lead to stay just a nose in front of him. Her focus is not totally on either my husband or me. She is definately more excitable.

The priceless part is he could not even be bothered to look her way, go figure. So now I need to know ho to correct this???????

 Quote: Valerie Tietz-Kelly

What is so telling is SHE HAS to be at least a nose IN FRONT of him at all times. If she is in the heel, she is constantly looking at him to see where he is, and she will even attempt to pull the lead to stay just a nose in front of him. Her focus is not totally on either my husband or me. She is definately more excitable.

The priceless part is he could not even be bothered to look her way, go figure. So now I need to know ho to correct this???????

That sounds EXACTLY like my Sheltie and GSD. We don't walk them together anymore, because she's too much of a butt. We're working on pack structure in the walk situation, and may reintroduce it soon. I dunno. I'd love to hear advice people have for our shared situation.

Any suggestions folks? I guess I can manage it by being more aware when she is with my male, and always make sure she is ahead of him, that would be easy because he doesn't care.