I Just wanted to pass a message on for Roni Hoff. She is traveling today and probably won't get a chance to get on the computer tonight. She said that she will try to answer your questions in the morning.

Corinne Olson

Hi Geoff - We've communicated before on this issue. I'm sorry you are still having problems. I'm sure you are right about needing a stimm level of 28 before you are seeing a reaction with the Dogtra 1700. It just seems kinda high to me. My hard ass dog will blink an eye at 18 if he isn't in drive. We both understand all dogs are different.

Just so you can eliminate the post to skin contact issue from your mind, I would try setting the receiver at either 3 or 9 o'clock on your dogs neck. The neck is firmer there. You may have done this already but if you haven't it's a idea to totally eliminate the contact issue.

Then you can concentrate on what the other posters think the problem might be. Roni may be able to give some suggestions. It does sound like the dog is confused.

I'm don't think ecollars can only be used successfully on hard dogs. But I'm no expert either. As you know my experience is limited to my own personal dog. I know it will always be part of my training tools in the future.

Edited by lee sternberg (03/14/2008 08:34 AM)
Edit reason: word change

 Quote: lee sternberg

Hi Geoff - We've communicated before on this issue. I'm sorry you are still having problems. I'm sure you are right about needing a stimm level of 28 before you are seeing a reaction with the Dogtra 1700. It just seems kinda high to me. My hard ass dog will blink an eye at 18 if he isn't in drive. We both understand all dogs are different.

Just so you can eliminate the post to skin contact issue from your mind, I would try setting the receiver at either 3 or 9 o'clock on your dogs neck. The neck is firmer there. You may have done this already but if you haven't it's a idea to totally eliminate the contact issue.

Then you can concentrate on what the other posters think the problem might be. Roni may be able to give some suggestions. It does sound like the dog is confused.

I'm don't think ecollars can only be used successfully on hard dogs. But I'm no expert either. As you know my experience is limited to my own personal dog. I know it will always be part of my training tools in the future.

Yes Lee thanks for all your previous help.

I do switch up the position of the receiver from 3 to 9 o'clock. I really don't think it is a contact issue I have jammed tight I can't rotate the receiver and it is on snug when I wiggle it. I do use the 3/4" posts as well.

I know Steve and Jessica are saying she doesn't associate the stimulation with a correction. That maybe partially true in the beginning but for the most part when I am in earshot I always always verbally correct her with a 'no' she knows what that means in conjunction with a prong or fursaver, even a cheek grab .. 'no' means 'NO!' So why wouldn't that mean the same with a stimulation?

At Ringsport training last night we had long talk about using the e-collar with Ring training. The coach really thinks that we don't need it in a traditional Ringsport training sense. Such as for dirty outs etc, he would only want to use it as a last resort. At this point her Ringsport doesn't need a lot of compulsion so the e-collar is redundant for that use.

I also discussed with the coach why I would like to use it such as .. "what is the differance between pulling her off a decoy with a long line if she doesn't comply with a command vs getting a Stimulation with an e-collar?" During Ring competition there is no collar, no prong, no nothing. It is just the decoy, dog and handler. So my point was I'd like to mix the different ways to train her up as we all know that a dog can get collar wise to any type of collar doesn't matter if it is a prong, e-collar or a piece of spaghetti ... the dog knows .. If the dog turns around and gives his/her handler the finger on the field because it doesn't have any collar or line on. Really what is the difference? You still fail the exercise ..

He said to me that he can tell when a Ring dog that has been trained with e-collar. He was saying the dog once it hears the command it is in panic to comply to beat the stimulation. Obviously those dogs he has seen have been trained with escape training techniques. I agree with him that I never want to use escape training techniques no matter how fast they can get results, you get a dog that IMHO works because it is forced too not because it wants to, big difference!

He also said he has seen dogs with a e-collar on the base of their tails to make them explode on the bite entries .. Wow I guess so if I had my butt zinged I'd jump harder, faster into where I was going too!! LOL!! I still think it may have its place for Ring but I'll let sleeping dogs lie at Ring training over the e-collar now.

I know I've gone on a lot about Ringsport training, but that is NOT the real issue here. Ring is 2-3 times a week for a few hours, then it is 24/7 living with the same dog. I still think my problem is how to read my dog for setting stimulation levels for those type of situations. For every day regular training that's where I feel I am at.

Thanks in advance

Hey Geoff, I didnt mean to agree or disagree with associating the stim with a correction. I really only meant the part of Jessica's post where we are trying to piece together Roni's methods. I'm just thinking it answers what you want as far as the title of your thread. I get the Idea that she would respond on that lower setting that you may not think she is aware of. I also think it's a higher level of training involving better timing and reading your dog then just using it as another correction and it may be almost impossible to teach online since it will be very specific to each dog and probably training location. Jessica's answer does make since though because an ecollar correction can seem unrelated to a dog to even your command depending on what else is around that her attention could be on.

Makes sense Steve appreciate your help ..

Another thing I forgot to say re: if she is reading the stimulation as a correction. As well as reinforcing the stimulation with a 'no' if she is close to me I as well use body language the same way I do if she was on a leash, i.e. crowd her, eye contact etc.. I'm still trying to get into her head.

Nothing changes with my attitude or demeanor with her .. just the e-collar tool being the variable.

 Quote: geoff empey

As per Ed's video I tried to find a working Stim level for her. We got a reaction from her with our Dogtra 1700 on level 28 but at level 25 even on continuous stim there was no response. But at level 28 she would get really jumpy. The page to me seemed to get the best reaction from her. I have been using only page now with no stim for all things. It just seems that I am not utilizing my e-collar to its full potential in doing so though.

For example .. I'll say "sit" (no response) "no"... and stim her with a 'nick' on level 28 and repeat "sit". She gets antsy and almost goes into avoidance behaviour. From what I see the level is too high but anything lower I don't get a reaction!??! To me it still wasn't what I expected and confusing after reading all the positive talk surrounding e-collar use itself.

Hi Geoff;
I would like to talk you thru refining finding the working level for your dog, based on helping your dog solidify the meaning of your commands that you have previously taught. If your dog is really jumpy at 28, it is too much. I start at 0 and slowly increase the stim until I see, and ear twitch, or and eye blink or an momentary hestitation in movement. I am in a neutral environment, dog on a buckle collar and a leash, just hanging out. Once I have the level that I think is appropriate, I give the dog a sit command, using a bit of food and body language to reinforce the sit and at the same time tap the nick button 3 times. As you can see the stim is paired with the command and the primary reinforcer. This gets "rid of" any negativity associated with the into of the stim. This is a very condensed version of what I do, but some ideas for you to try.

Geoff, ecollar on the base of the tail??? That has to be a really small collar strap or a really big tail!!! Probably also helps if your dog is constipated.

Edited by lee sternberg (03/14/2008 07:46 PM)
Edit reason: spelling

 Quote: lee sternberg

Geoff, ecollar on the base of the tail??? That has to be a really small collar strap or a really big tail!!! Probably also helps if your dog is constipated.

From what I understood from my coaches description was the collar went around the belly under the rear leg with the receiver on the cross side of the tail at the base.

I'm sure it got someone's desired effect. Pretty amazing that someone would try it and then work with it. I don't have enough experience to say it is nasty or not .. it sounds that way. If it does work it just goes to show you the versatility of e-collar use is only limited to someone's imagination.

 Quote: roni hoff

Hi Geoff;
I would like to talk you thru refining finding the working level for your dog, based on helping your dog solidify the meaning of your commands that you have previously taught. If your dog is really jumpy at 28, it is too much. I start at 0 and slowly increase the stim until I see, and ear twitch, or and eye blink or an momentary hestitation in movement. I am in a neutral environment, dog on a buckle collar and a leash, just hanging out. Once I have the level that I think is appropriate, I give the dog a sit command, using a bit of food and body language to reinforce the sit and at the same time tap the nick button 3 times. As you can see the stim is paired with the command and the primary reinforcer. This gets "rid of" any negativity associated with the into of the stim. This is a very condensed version of what I do, but some ideas for you to try.

Thanks for responding Roni. The 3 nicks is that at the exact same time as the command? Or is it associated with the primary reinforcer?

I am going to try to get a private lesson with a local SAR person If the person is not to busy who has experience with Malinois and e-collar use for helping setting stimulations levels. I just don't think I have enough experience in reading my dog to know what she is doing. I basically tried the same thing as you described but got to 28 and then it was to much IMHO. Maybe my contacts were off at first, but I'd go over the collar and wiggle it to make sure the contacts were touching through the fur and the collar wasn't moving. I'm not sure what else to do to make sure the contacts are grounded properly.

Geoff;
I have had dogs overreact to the stim. It is not a problem, so I'm sure your dog will understand the button if you stop at 25-27. It's not about the number. Learning can and will occur at the lower number. Please give it a try. Please trust that you can do this. Smile. Grab some steak and go play with your dog.
This truly is a wonderful way to train. Your dog will learn.
Let me know how it goes. I will be training tomorrow, but I will be checking my email to see how you are doing.
Roni