Quote: cameron feathers

I think we are actually on the same page here... I am just not doing a good job of explaining what I mean.

Cameron, thanks--because I did think that you were saying that you thought that only leadership mattered and genetics did not play into the rehabilitation of a dog, but I think I understand you better now.

 Quote: randy allen

You slowly decide it has weak nerves (or bad genetics) or conditioned through the wild card that is the owner handler.

Yes, totally and that's why I have to be creative in pulling info (all part of the "art" ). I think it's my job as a trainer to be able to pull something out of a client that they don't think is important (For example: "My dog sleeps on a pillow next to me but that has nothing to do with his dominance issues so why should I mention it to the trainer.") But I was talking about dogs that are new to the owner with no background known. While I do think that the treatment plan is the same, it would be helpful to have a background.

 Quote: jennifer mullen

i'm just wondering if you could look at non-fearful behaviours as an indicator.

Jennifer, I think you and I are on the same page here. A simplified way to ask the question is maybe: "Are there any other indicators of a weak-nerved/genetically flawed dog other than fearfulness."

I have not personally seen any strong correlation to any other behaviors as being an indicator of bad genetics other than what we have all discussed, but I did think it was possible that someone on this board has noticed some other abnormal behaviors that go hand-in-hand.

I think that people that are training (or breeding) for a specific working purpose might be more inclined to notice any other abnormalities beyond the obvious fearfulness to indicate weak-nerves.

But again, I think that the answer so far is "no, there is no magic indicator of weak-nerves in the absence of history other than the test of time."

It did seem to me that it was *possible* that a gentically flawed dog might be more likely to have obsessive behaviors unrelated to the fear issues than a sound but undersocialized/mistreaded dog.

But as Cindy said, it's all academic really because we handle the cases the same way.

Well yes, if you have an owner to listen to, you try and get a take on the hows and whys it's come to be that dog got to this state, and it does help to see the real variable in the mix. In the end though, isn't it always a one to one with the dog? With the dog telling you what he/she needs. That you start with a dog that has no known multiplier of x means only more steps in the differential equation, or in some cases fewer. However one must open the box to find out.

Looking at only the outside of the box, the cat is always both, dead and alive.
Randy

an interesting article I stumbled upon...
http://www.breedingbetterdogs.com/achiever.html

Can you direct me to a source for confidence building and ways to train a dog that has no food drive and very little ball drive. I have been able to teach her to sit but that is about it. I have no currency with her so how do I train her or get her to focus? Her anxiety out weighs my importance to her. Any help would be appreciated. She is a year old

Chris, what types of treats have you tried? Have you tried making sure she is hungry prior to training? (cutting back meals/not feeding the day of training until after) I use high value treats and will dice up tiny pieces of raw steak, chicken livers, I try to stay away from hotdogs and overprocessed 'human' foods but the Natural Balance food rolls are great cut into little 1/4" squares for medium to large dogs.

How long have you had her? Do you try to train during distractions or is she so nervous she won't even focus in your home?

Find a quiet, comfortable environment to train in and work on finding a food treat valuable enough for her/cut back food rations to increase/manipulate food drive.

I have had her for about 4 months. She is worse in the house with the nervous behavior and almost acts like a real dog outside in her kennel. She is on a raw diet,so I've tried every kind of meat. Freeze dried treats like liver, chicken etc. I have even tried cat treats, cheese, fish, cooked meats and every kind of treat from pupperoni to snausages (against my better judgement). I tried to train in the house but she shuts down completely. So i work with her in the outside kennel. I withhold her food and it doesnt help, I withheld her food for 2 days - no luck. I am concerned that she may run off since I am unable to get her to come.

Keep her on a long line if she is outside, that will prevent her from running off. Also, when wanting her to come to you, don't bend over or lean over, squat down with your back or side to her and don't look at her. Don't call to her, just be in the environment. Another thing you can try (and this is assuming she is not just clueless as to what come means, which is possible. I am assuming she is not coming to you because she is timid or nervous) is when approaching her don't talk, don't look at her, move sideways or parallel to her, slowly, and then kneel down or squat near her without looking at her to get her curious in you and to make you not threatening or imposing.

Does she eat enthusiastically or does she pick and nibble? You can try using her actual food. Start training outside where she is comfortable.

Is she submissive/nervous around you/people? Do you know her history? Was she kept with other dogs as she matured until you got her?

Is she an outside dog or would you like her to be an inside dog? I suggest crate training and tethering. Tethering really does absolute wonders for building confidence, trust, and a bond with a dog. If she is nervous/unsure in the house, don't ask anything of her as you will likely just create more stress. For a while, tethering, just allow her to get used to being in the house and with you, don't do any training or stressful activities as getting used to being indoors will be the goal.

I have a pup that was terrified of being inside and afraid of everything in the house because he'd never seen any of it before. Tethering works wonders. Until you have a good bond and trust built with her she may shut down during training. If she is being kept with any other dogs I suggest separating her from the other dogs completely to help her build a bond and trust with YOU versus being reliant on other dogs.

What can happen with dogs that are doggy and timid is they don't want to take food from a human's hand. If the human is higher ranking as they should be, it goes against a dogs nature to take food from a higher ranking pack member unless they are making an attempt to move up in rank. I had to teach the pup I rescued that it was ok to take food from my hand when offered. He also had to be taught to play with toys I held, he had to learn that tugging and wanting/being excited about getting an item I have is ok.

Please correct me if I made wrong assumptions here based on her potential background or issues (generalized nervousness)

Hey Chris,
When I got my AB she behaved the same way. When I first put her in my truck she stayed as far away as possible. The first time I vacumed she almost jumped out the second story window.

I kept her leashed to me 24/7 when I was home. She could not run around and sniff or freak out. I also hand fed her.
It took a solid month before she even began to show signs of improvement. Now she wont leave my side. Where I go she follows.
Her confidence is growing all the time. She was afraid of men, then just the other day she a missionary made an aggressive move towards me and she responded my almost taking a chunk from his leg.
She had ZERO drive of any kind never mind food. But I was more concerned about building confidence and trust before training. After about 6 weeks I would start skipping the evening meal to get her hungry for morning training. Finding a yummy treat was pretty difficult. For me Turkey dogs and broiled chicken work well. I must have wasted $150.00 at pet food stores trying to find stuff to motivate her.
I am still learning how to read behavior and nerves. I just have not found a trainer I am confident in to evaluate her. She has no problem going after 150 lb dogs, or sheep but gets nervous around the gold fish at Pet Smart.
I hope my experience helps.

~Jeff