Hi everyone - I hope you can help with what I think is a simple question.
First of all, let me say I have an AWESOME 5-1/2 month old puppy - my second GSD that I chose specifically to do Schutzhund. Great prey drive and solid nerves - very confident.
I've got a BH with my other dog who's got ok prey drive...probably enough to get a S1, but little enough that it's frustrating to work with her. She's great in obedience and tracking.
ANYHOO...the puppy "Guinness"
I have the Bernhard Flinks video on building drive and focus. I also have the grip training ones. Guinness is finished teething and great on the tug. AWESOME. I do 2-3 minute grip training with her a couple times a day.
Now here's the thing...I can make drive with a ball on the string and then hold it up and she'll sit and focus...longer and longer times beginning with 2 seconds, etc. I drop the ball, and say "pachen" and she will just now catch it in her mouth. BUT ...how the hell do I get it away from her? I have taught the OUT and she will drop it no problem. But I was finding that I was outing too often in the GRIP (tug) game - for the same reasons - she never lets go of the bloody thing. The reason I know this is cuz she didn't want to come into my arms. I think I've cleared that up now..and she comes and doesn't chew and I fight again.
But in the focus training how do I keep the game going without syaing OUT every time I make her focus and drop it? Or do you just do that one time every day? Should she carry the ball to her crate? If so, how do I get it away from her there without saying OUT?
btw...she's no longer falling for the "bait and switch" routine, however if she's hungry she would drop the ball for a piece of weiner. Is that a good idea?

Thanks for your help.

I spend a good 2 or 3 minutes annoying the snot out of my dog with a 2nd ball, letting it dangle behind and around his ears and anywhere that might irritate him enough to snap at it and drop ball #1. Works pretty good, except when i'm too slow and he actually gets ball #2 and I have to spend another 2 or 3 minutes getting that back :p

Some people lift the dog by the collar and choke the dog till he spits the ball. I personally don't care for it myself.

If your dog is willing to trade for food then do that. I wish mine would, but if it were up to him he'd have 2 balls in his mouth as well as the food. He's done that already....

I also don't require the ball back every time. I let him come to me with the ball and learn that coming to me with the ball means we get to play tug again. Or I'll leave the ball alone and just pet him (similar to the "into my arms" concept I guess). My dogs usually stay close to me or keep bumping me to play when they have the ball, rather than playing keep away.

thanks Mike.
I saw somewhere on the Bernhard Flinks video that playing 2-ball can cause the dog to drop the prey in anticipation of the 2nd one coming. I was worried about that. Also, this dog is FAST and/or I am SLOW. Which is good, of course. But I would probably just end up trying to get another ball away from her.

I don't want to play tug with the ball, cuz she rips the strings off them and destroys the balls. (And yes, I bought the "orbee ball" Ed sells on his website and the string came out in just a few days.)
Also, playing tug with the dog still doesn't get ME the ball! This dog does NOT want to let go!
So you think food is ok, eh? I was worried she'd start dropping prey to look for food, or if she smelled it on the field. People at my club always have weiners in their pockets and most of my jackets smell like weiners...lol

Just re-read that post and thinking maybe I worry too much.

If the dog shows he is gets too willing to spit the prey I change my approach and mix it up.

I use Gappay brand balls (same factory as HST brand balls come from). I can swing an 80lb dog around on one and the strings are fine. Haven't used the Orbee balls, but I remember reading something about re-knotting the strings to get them to stay put?

Tugging with the dog is a big part of the training. It is the interaction between the handler providing the game to the dog. Simply giving the ball does nothing for that interaction. So figure out a way to be able to tug. To me, its an important thing to do.

Ahso!
Great advice. I guess I just need better balls then.
HA HA HA
So when I drop the ball and she catches it, then run with her, take her in my arms, and play more tug just like with the jute toy? Then I bait-and-switch for another ball and make more drive?

Basically, yeah. Mix it up alot. Don't make it a pattern, try to avoid the dog anticipating what you are going to do, so he focuses on your cue rather than jumping ahead of the game.

I think I'm slowly getting it, but it's so frustrating cuz I know damn well that any problems that will arise will be MY FAULT and not the dog's. She's got awesome prey drive and loves to carry around stuff, and she's developing a good grip for a young dog.
So if she starts dropping the thing or chewing on it I'm gonna impale myself with the end of the leash or some other blunt object!
One thing I noticed at the club yesterday (I can only go Saturdays cuz of my work schedule) was that I probably take her into my arms too long. Sometimes she grips the thing like a steel trap (in my arms) but a bit too long and she starts chewing or trying to wriggle away from me so she can go off and chew it.
Also I was "patting" her side (softly) but I'll try to make sure I'm smoothing her instead.

Charles,

You aren't alone. I didn't really understand the bottom line. I went through the motions without understanding the philosophy. I wound up with a fine drive and focus, but a HORRIBLE grip.

The grip part (with a ball) made absoloutely zero sense to me.

My training group is mostly comprised of people who started their dogs properly. Like you, I was only able to go once per week at most. For six months, we could not get over the hump of my bad foundation.

However, I was lent a sleeve, and almost right away I "got it". It just took me having to see what I actually needed on the kind of sleeve we would actually use.

In my mind, I still don't get how well a ball would translate, and I'm not sure I'd even use a ball next time. I'd rather start ASAP on bite wedge or tug but apply the same principles. THEN the carrying and cradling makes sense in; order to simply habituate the dog to the sensation of having something back on it's tonsils.

Once I got it, the dog got it. In a few weeks time, on a 2 year old dog, we're back on track. It wasn't genetic after all.

Charles, its a fact of life that everyone screws up their first few dogs, unfortunately there's nothing you can really do about that It's also why many breeders will never give the best pup in a litter to someone inexperienced. Its fixing the things you screwed up that teaches you a lot more than getting everything right all the time.

Consider it a learning curve. Do your best, accept your mistakes and learn from them. If you always have a perfect dog you don't learn a thing. There's alot of people that trial with dogs that were trained by someone else -- they might look great on the trial field, but do they actually know how to train a dog?