a dog NEVER challenges a pack leader? Or is establishing yourself as pack leader a life-long process (for the life of the dog)? For example, once Ed's dogs (or the dogs of anyone who really knows what they're doing) know he's the pack leader, do they always mind 100% of the time on commands they know, for the rest of their lives? Or does Ed (or whoever) have to do corrections occassionally (on commands the dog knows, of course) for the rest of the dogs life, to remind the dog who's boss?

dogs never forget the training you have done with them, but a dog knows if your not consistant with the training and you dont keep up with it, neither will the dog

Yes I do think there is a point in a relationship where a dog will no longer challenge for a higher rank in the pack. With that said, I believe that a dog will/may always need corrections for little things. This depends on a dogs temperament, but I sure know that my guys ears magically stop listening when we head to the park after a festival and there's half-eaten two day old turkey legs lying on the ground.

Most dogs won't challenge leadership. Most dogs just ain't that dominant, unless you really suck as a handler. Just look at Cesar Milan, if the dogs really were that dominant, then a stranger couldn't just step in and show them the way.

There are of course dogs that will try, but often, if your handling is correct, this won't be an issue anyway. Then there are some dogs who will always push for rank for as long as they live, and eat you alive if they get the upper hand for a minute. But generally, those are the dogs with big labels stapled to their heads saying "not for beginning handlers."

The problem is when people that suck at leadership skills classify their dogs as "really dominant," when in reality, the leadership is just horribly lacking.

Dominance is all relative. At the end of the day, it all comes down to handling skill. There is also the misinterpretation that dominance is related to willingness to follow OB. That's not necessarily so. A dog can be entirely submissive to you, and still ignore you when something more favorable to them comes about. That's a training issue not a rank issue.

I think there's a difference between disobedience and challenging for leadership.

Handling skills, as Mike says, are everything. Some dogs will have almost instant deafness or forgetfullness when something new/exciting/tasty appears and ignore the handler completely, but never challenge for 'Pack Leader' position.

That's the correction/distraction bit coming in - more training required!

 Quote: Mike J Schoonbrood

Dominance is all relative. At the end of the day, it all comes down to handling skill.

As usual, Mike has hit the nail on the head (IMO).
I see this every day in my own house. My husband is a much more dominant physical presence than I am, and generally our pup is fairly submissive with him. (But he has no handling skills to speak of. )
I don't have this presence about me, so I really have to work on my handling skills to keep on top of things. If I remain consistent, I do fairly well. If I get lazy, my 'dominant' pup lets me know it!

 Quote: Lynne Barrows

... ... I don't have this presence about me ...

That presence, or top-dog assertiveness, can be worked on and developed.

 Quote: connie sutherland

 Quote: lynne barrows

... ... I don't have this presence about me ...

That presence, or top-dog assertiveness, can be worked on and developed.

Ditto....Lynne, I think you have done a wonderful job with your girl. From what I remember, you have come a long way in a short amount of time with her and that is GREAT!!

I wouldn't doubt you have it in you to be a really strong leader. And to be honest, I have two right now that I need to really "work at it" with. But it only becomes easier and helps me grow and learn as a handler.

 Quote: carol boche

I wouldn't doubt you have it in you to be a really strong leader. And to be honest, I have two right now that I need to really "work at it" with. But it only becomes easier and helps me grow and learn as a handler.

Thanks, Connie and Carol...
One thing's for sure, my next dog will benefit from this growth curve that Chula has had to endure!

Im grateful to all who have posted here as this is exactly what I go through being a new handler, and it gives me as well as many others confidence to see other people facing the same situations . I love this forum.