Having watched an inordinate amount of Ed's DVDs, I have learned a lot. However, I am still a bit confused. As I understand it, a protection dog should not be heavily trained in obedience , as it is likely to decrease his drive. However, he does need obedience training - especially if he will be involved in protection sports. Therefore, my question is how much obedience and when is it OK to begin using the E-Collar on the dog just starting his protection training.

Again, I understand you can use the E-Collar anytime, as when done right it is a humane way to train a dog, I'm just not sure of what are the yardsticks of measurement for the balance between protection training and obedience training.

-Al

Al, the "don't train OB too much, it'll affect his drive" is an old school idea from back when compulsion was how OB was done.

Now we do OB with motivation, so if anything, it'll increase a dog's drive ( or at least train *you* as a handler to see what your dog looks like in drive ).

From your other post, I'd just concentrate on OB now and allow your dog to mature before you start protection work.

I don't start bite work until a dog is around 12 to 14 months old and I won't do civil testing until the dog is *mature*, between 18 to 24 months for most dogs.
Doing civil work at too early of an age is a serious mistake that many dogs will never recover from - you need to discuss this in detail with your trainer ( who hopefully knows what he's talking about....)

I truely believe obedience done motivationally increases drive.
Starting with food for clarity. When you move up to a bite tug or ball for reward the drive goes way up. Continue this using the bite as a reward and the drive AND obedience takes a quantum leap if done correctly.

Guys,

This makes perfect sense too me: motivational training = drive. It feels a bit like the light bulb is going on for me, thanks for taking the time to reply to my posts, I really do appreciate the help. Nothing is more frustrating than trying to learn new things and not having a place to turn to for good advice, hopefully one day, I will be able to put back in all I am taking from this forum.

-Al

You know what else? Motivational ob enhances your bond and builds the dog's confidence. And it's fun for both of you. Wait 'til you see your dog jump up eagerly when he thinks that you have a training session coming!

Without obedience how do you give direction to all that drive building in the protection phase?? How do you work with your dog??
The old methodology of build to you have an out of control unreliable, pain in the a$$, then knock him oveer the head till you gain some control by diminishing drive till just before the animal quits, then build it back up again till you got no control and have to start all oveer is old fashioned cave man (no geiko jokes please) dog training.
Even the use of pressure on the dog can benefit the balance of drives, even training with conflict when done purposely and in a planned organized fashion can benefit the protection phase. Everyone here is giving credence to what is being called motivational training (pain is a motivator too) but compulsion and conflict training as well as training that avoids those things all when done correctly enhance protection work. Out of control dogs are unimpressive and unproven in regards to quality. Only the trainable, intense, controlled dog is capable, useful, and acceptable.

Kevin,

Don't get me wrong, my dog has had OB training, I just laid off it, thinking (wrongly) that too much would kill his drive for protection work. I really like your perspective concerning varied training being good (i.e., training motivational and training with conflict) but you hit it on the head - training must be done correctly. I am learning that training is an art and a science. For people like me, that are very interested and study everything I can get my hands on, it still is not enough, perfect training is a result of experience. What I am realizing is that as this is my first dog, I am treating him like I did my first kid, the slightest thing and he's off to the doctor and I over analyze it. Over time, as I became more comfortable and had more kids, I was able to relax, and enjoy the teaching aspect, I expect that this will happen in my dog training as well. Thanks for your thoughts.

-Al