I´m not getting into this theoretical thing eather it´s much too confusing for me.

It´s nice to see you found something that seems to work. SCH3 said some important things too. Now I don´t know that you have some kind of string on that ball, but I think you should because when she comes to you YOU have to make it fun too and play tug (simulates pulling on the prey at dinner time, no ????) and I don´t see how you can do that without string on it.
Because a dog soon knows when she comes she has to give it up. I too had major problems with my dog because she has "prey defense drives" :-) and want to keep what´s hers. So this I try to resolve (although this keeps coming back)by when she comes to me and play tug (pulling and giving little the toy couple of times) and let her win because she like to fight with it. And this makes it fun for the dog coming to you.
I see your dog like bouncing things, I believe there are toys which bounch in different directions (kong I thing it´s called) although I´m not sure it bounces as hard as a tennis bal.
It is also your art to find the right amount of playing in order to keep the dog at the same focus level. I found out that by putting away a favorite toy for a couple of time and then using it back again it can trigger ultra extreme focus again. (this is my personal experience with my dog)
P.S What happened with that chewedup soccer bal ?

 Quote:

Originally posted by Sch3FH2:
I'll jump in on that one - clicker training would work just fine --IF -- you had a reward for her that was more attractive than hunting animal scents or chasing squirrels. But his problem is that there is NOTHING she finds more interesting or rewarding than that, so no matter what reinforcer you offer, it's of less value to her than the activity that she can do without you.

It seems to me that at some point, hunger would be a stronger motivator than scenting.. would it not? or is your opinion that the dog would scent more intensely trying to actually "find" food??

Thanks for the comment, Matt, and I'm sure that technically you are correct.

However you cannot routinely starve a dog and expect to build long-term focus. It would also negatively impact your bond with the dog, since the dog rightly expects to be fed by the pack leader.

I do use food to teach her to focus, however, since it works better than any substitute prey item for this dog. My interest now is in getting her to make the "transition" from real prey to imaginary prey--i.e. to redirect her attention to me during our games.

Pete

I think I was perhaps unclear...

I never made any statement about "routinely starving" the dog... I said its hunger... simply meaning hungry...

also, I meant to add, that if the dog's scenting is getting in the way, you could teach it to play "fetch" indoors, away from the distractions of the "game-scents".

I also, do not see how witholding food from a dog would damage it's bond with its handler.. as long as you are still the one that feeds her (at long last <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ) she should "appreciate" it all the more..

just trying to be helpful

Matt--

It's all a matter of degree. What threw me was the phrase "at some point" -- which made me ask, "At which point?" Sure, there is a point at which the dog will be so insanely hungry it will care about nothing except the food in your hand. But that can take DAYS, and obviously can't be done as a matter of course.

I was thinking specifically of a guy I knew whose dog hated to track. He would routinely starve the dog for three days and then put his food on the track. After awhile the dog just quit (I think he had stopped enjoying life) and so then the guy started witholding water. The dog got to where he was tracking out of fear for his survival--it was kind of the tracking version of table training.

This dog did very good protection work and okay obedience, but never did pass his SchH1 because he would freak out at the start of the track and shut down.

I think withholding food for several hours or even one day (occasionally) can be a real good way to motivate a dog, be it in tracking or obedience. And this does nothing to damage your bond with the dog. Beyond that, I have my doubts about withholding food as a training tool. And withholding water is just nuts (no, Matt, I know you never advocated that!) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> .

Also, to answer your queries directly:

1) I think withholding food would cause less focus, not more. This dog wants to kill animals to eat them--she's caught quite a few mice and moles and gulped them right down. So your second scenario is most likely correct--she would go into overload trying to hunt something down and feed herself.

2) She plays fetch just fine indoors. So I guess you could say that by going outside, we are moving the game to the "proofing phase"... :rolleyes:

Thanks again,

Pete

Pete, Have you tried playing fetch in a enclosed narrow area. I used the chainlionk fence and set up a temp fence 6 foot out from the chain link.
The area was 6 feet by 30 feet. This kept my dog from wandering around in the yard. Also helps getting the dog to return to you.