I agree that it can be both. For example, *some* trainers teach the "down" by snapping downward on the dog's prong collar. This is both correcting them (for something they don't even know) and compulsory way of getting them to lie down. This gives the dog a negative association with learning his "sits" and "downs" if he is taught by pulling up on the collar or snapping/yanking downward. "Down" is pain. Since dogs think in pictures and feelings, he can remember this the rest of his life when he works OB.

I'm confused then, because you've said you teach using compulsion.

What do you mean when you say you use compulsion, because from your above post, you speak of compulsion and it's negative effects (and I agree with everything in that post, BTW), but in other posts you have advocated compulsion and stated that you use compulsion to train your clients' dogs.

I just think both words are more nuanced.
For instance, say my dog has the best down in the world. The way I taught the down was, from a very young age down is a good place, luring onto the floor followed by tug games, wrestling, it was just a joy to hit the floor. Now two years later, a command of down is followed immediately, with a wonderful expectant look, watching waiting for whats next. She just has this compulsion. The dog just doesn't have a choice, she doesn't know why, all she knows is that is the place to be and it feels good, one can see it in her face.

Going for a walk, she spots (shhhhh) a cat, I call her to a heel. She comes abreast nicely, but her head is watching that avowed enemy. I say, no heel. Her head turns again, I give a jingle on her collar, hello hello, remember me? 'Yeah yeah, what do you want already?' 'There's that cat right over there!'. She breaks, hits the end of the lead, 'yikes! ouch that hurts'.
Some may call that a correction, some may call that compulsion.

Say I have a very nice heel, but her sit is crooked. So we practise our sits next to fences, or next to over turned benches. One may say I'm giving corrections, but she has no choice, so on the other hand I am compelling her to sit as I want through compulsion, she must comply. There is no choice. I have forced her to sit as I wish. She's just as happy and attentive, however over some time it becomes an automatic position.

I know generally the dog world uses the two words for perhaps two very different training methods. And Cindy is right it would be easier if it were cut and dried. I submit though that the two over lap so much in meaning each person needs to decide for themselves where one starts and the other begins.

Corrections can be harsh and corporeal.
Compulsion may be a shaping of behavior over time.

If I'm not learning, I'm not paying attention.
Randy

 Quote: randy allen

I just think both words are more nuanced. .... a command of down is followed immediately, with a wonderful expectant look, watching waiting for whats next. She just has this compulsion.

Nice point.

I think that when dog folks use the word compulsion, it generally refers to being "physically compelled by trainer."

And it would be great if corrections were always just the level required to get the dog's attention, but you are certainly right that corrections can turn into punishments with undue length or force or even poor timing.

I quite agree Connie,
Generally in the dog world we have a line in mind where correction crosses into compulsion. With one being kind of positive and the other being rather negative, but that line gets kinda of fuzzy from person to person.
How about another heeling exercise? Nice heel going down the street, however at the corner the dog doesn't sit. The dog knows the routine in a casual setting, so if I just put a little tightness into the leash, just enough that the dog feels no slack, no verbables, no pulling into position, in fact the dog could stand there all day if she wanted with little or no discomfort, her butt hits the deck. Magic, no more tightness, good girl, ear scratch, and back on our way. This is repeated each time she doesn't sit. Soon every time we stop any where on a heel, plop, nice sit.
Just as in the crooked sit, one may say I've used compulsion though no force was used, one may say I've used corrections though no corrections were given. I would be interested to hear what others may call it. Ya all be nice, or at least not too harsh....please.

If we can all agree to clear lines on what is meant when using the terms, and these are two, one would think, would be a couple of the simplest to define, if we can agree it would be a good thing for communication.

Me, I'll go with the consensues, gladly, with no debate.

If I'm not learning, I'm not paying attention.
Randy



Edited by randy allen (08/22/2008 11:21 AM)
Edit reason: I can't spell to good

I'm not an experienced trainer, but here is how I would simplify it:

Compulsion: Making the dog do something you want him to do.

Correction: Letting the dog know you're not liking what he's doing right now.

The two lines cross at some point, and it's in the method.

Say you're sure the dog knows how to lie down, and he refuses to comply, you can drag him down with your leash. Alternatively, you can say "NO, DOWN" followed by a leash correction, then give him a couple seconds to choose if he wants to mind or not this time.

Force was used in both scenarios, but quite differently. Not everyone can see the nuance. In my eyes, the correction was a mean of communication, while the compulsion was more of a negative reinforcement. For neophytes, the dog was merely forced to comply, and the story ends here.

And, as pointed by randy, compulsion is not necessarily negative.