I'm not clear on what you mean by the 'watch' command, Richard. At first I thought you meant attention, then decided you might mean the cue we give the dog when he's on the pole or being held on the line and being agitated to begin the work? Or do you mean the hold and bark command like revier or voran?

Sorry, terminology again. Watch is used for a B&H. We use the same command when we start on line to do initial training. Since I am training for PP, I actually have all commands in German, except the watch command. The reason being that if I am going to put the dog on some, I want them to know that is what is happening.

I appreciate all the responses to my initial question. I have not used the flanking technique because I haven't found it nesccesary and it didn't make sense to me. I don't see how the dog isn't going realize it is the handler that is doing the flanking, and that just seems to add conflict to the training especially in an eight month old pup that is consistently outing for the other toy. I introduce the out early with a pup, and just stop all the action with the prey item, myself, etc. and just slow everything down to a stop so the pup becomes bored and outs, and then the games starts over again in high gear. I was just wondering if there was something I was missing that might lead to future problems if I didn't address the out with the flanking/compulsion. As I said initially, another approach was to grab the back of the fursaver to get the tug or ball out, which seemed to instill some resistance in my pup. Not a stressed resistance, but more of an oppositional reflex type of resistance, where when I lifted him by the back of the fursaver and put some pressure on his throat and gave the out command, he tended to hold on a bit more due to the initial opposition. I didn't like this approach since I knew my pup would out consistently for another toy, but wondered if there was something I was missing that might lead to problems down the road.

With Bernhards ideal, your dog will not out only because an item (or helper) is stationary. I have photos from one of the seminars with a helper locked still, and Bernhard jumping over Itor's back. He is a firm beliver in only allowing the dog to out on command. Not because the prey stops moving, or because they feel like it. Bernhard is a detail man. He trials at an incredibly high level, keep that in mind with you and your dog, but I will say... it all goes together with his system.

With the flanking (and I agree with MichealTR) the first tape didn't describe it well enough that I was comfortable doing it with my own dog. When I went the the first seminar with my dog Bernhard flanked my dog (because he wouldn't out the toy) and IMMEDIATELY you put the ball back into motion. It is really a split second that the dog goes "huh" and then right back into drive work. It is impossible for Ed to put the amount of information Bernhard has to relay in a 2 hr video.

I dont believe you can go through training without using compulsion somewhere. Your pup is 8 months old and now would be a good time to get the "out" taken care of so it is not a lingering problem.Like Deanna says it is all about timing. Flanking is a very quick thing and the game is on before the dog has time to feel sorry for itself.The best thing about Bernhards method of training is its ver well thought at and consistent from begining to end. Other methods differ but work well also. Where Flinks doesnt teach the dog to out for awhile or until he likes the progress of the grip or bite development other methods like to teach the out as part of the game earlier.Like Richard says he like to teach an out early with the pups.Either way the out is something that must be taught so the game can continue or be enhanced.The 2 ball game can become just that, the 2 ball game and doesnt have a thing to do with the out.I have had to teach outs to working police k9s that know the 2 ball game very well but saw it as only the 2 ball game and didnt recognize it when they were on the bite because the out command on its own didnt really mean much of anything except here comes the fight so Im going to hang on even harder to the bite.The command for the out needs to mean something very clear,open your mouth, not lets trade or here I come so get ready .This makes a good argument for teaching the out compulsively.One thing to remember is that the out is obedience, not bite work.If you have a good working relationship with your dog dont be afraid to use some compulsion to teach it.With some dogs flanking can teach an out in a matter of minutes if done right and problem is solved.

Deanna,

I teach it as a command driven exercise also. I just give the command and let boredom do the rest. If you restart playing tug with out giving the command the pup soon figures that it has to hang on until the command is given. I refined this using the ball on a string like in the tape.

As for compulsion, yea I believe in it too. however I hate to use compulsion until the pup knows the command. Besides there is plenty of time to use the compulsion later as a correction for not doing the out. The second technique I described above. If the dog outs prematurely on the agitator just frustrate the hell out of the pup right after it releases and don't give it the bite. Then wait just a couple of minutes and build the drive up and give the bite, pause, and start playing tug again before it can release. Pause again, command the out, correct if necessary, and send in for another bite and win. If you have laid the ground work with the ball on a string, the pup understands the game it just needs to change context.

Thanks guys for some very beneficial info! Several good suggestions think about.

The salient points seem to be largely related to Deanna's comments. You don't want the dog to learn a premature out, but an out on command even if the prey has stopped moving. It seems like it's more of an issue of holding the grip vs. quality of grip.
David,
I disagree that now, with an 8.5 old month pup, that this is the time "to get the out taken care of."
My bias is to try to build drive through prey and play, keep it motivational, don't miss opportunities for success, etc. I feel I can always add a severe correction if my dog is ignoring me after he is more mature.
I agree a lot depends on the individual dog and your training goals, but to me, the challenge is trying to train without compulsion until it is really needed.