What is the group's opinion of breeders who produce puppies on a large scale that do not have many, if any, of their dogs in their breeding program. I'm not referring to puppy mills either, but working dog kennels.

I've noticed this happens a lot more in bigger kennels than smaller ones. But that isn't to say that I've not observed it in smaller settings.

Why would kennels do this; what does this say about their dogs, if anything?

This observation is only made from looking at different kennels online though.

I can see and understand why a person wouldn't have any dogs bearing their kennel name when they are in the beginning stages of starting their own line.

I can also understand why they wouldn't ONLY have dogs with their kennel name, because they wouldn't be able to bring new bloodlines into the mix.

I'm looking for more experienced thoughts of owners and breeders on this.

Thanks,

Megan

It's hard to tell what someone's intentions are through the internet. I like to give people the benefit of doubt before judging.
Often times breeders do not put young stock up on their webpage until the dog is competiting or won't put up all their dogs at all until they are titled. It's fairly common at least in my breed to be rather secretive about how many dogs they really have. Alot of this is fear over the label of puppymill or even being robbed.
Secondly, define alot? Is it two litters on ground at the same time, ten, twenty? the hard part about establishing a kennel and a line is that you have to breed dogs and have them be quality dogs at that. I think Ed mentioned in one of his articles or podcasts that someone from germany said someone establishing a bloodline should breed at least 10 litters a year. This is a staggering amount of dogs for me but again I know people who have bred well over 30 litters a year. Does it make them a puppymill to not keep a pup out of each litter even though they run all the health screenings, dna tests, and research pedigrees in a way that would make the LDS churchgoers jealous? I don't know, maybe. Are their intentions to keep a puppy? I can go by their word on that special puppy not being in the litter for them but I cannot peer into their soul to see if it’s true or not.
If you are genuinely interested in these people. Call them and ask questions, odds are there is a reason for what is and is not up there. It could be they’re out for a buck,or raising dogs to support other dogs that they’re campaigning. I actually know of one breeder outside of this country that breeds over 50 litters a year. Seems like an extreme right? They do sell a lot of those puppies. They certainly don’t keep one out of every litter. They also currently have 4 dogs in the sires of merit top 10 this year, at least a hundred confirmation champions in this country alone to their credit, etc. Are they a puppymill? Maybe, who knows.

For me I look for the dog I want, find the person I want to deal with based upon their interactions with me, people I know, and their dogs, and spend a little less time worrying about how their website makes them look.

Megan McCallister wrote in part:
"I can see and understand why a person wouldn't have any dogs bearing their kennel name when they are in the beginning stages of starting their own line"

Megan,if you mean working line, before even looking it might be best to ask a breeder the following questions offered by a working breeder of over 10 years. The below is not a direct quote but the content is still in tact and IMO worth your time.

"I could make a list for you of all the breeders I know of...and Lord knows it would be a short list, but a better idea would be to suggest that you simply ask the following questions of any breeder with pups for sale;

1. What can the parents DO? What can you SHOW me if I come to visit?
2. Who has obtained a previous pup/dog related to this line that is currently at work in a functional task? Sport? Training beyond basic OB? How are they working out? Request references from working placements. Check them out.
3. How many pups have you produced...how many are healthy adults, how many have you had fail for health/temperament?

Here is what will happen when you ask these questions, many 'breeders' will simply move on to a softer target, some will tell you it is not important that (fill in the blank breed) work, perform utility tasks, or even require training that's 'cause they are naturally endowed with nearly mystical abilities...but you have probably already heard that one) and some will offer the truth...and the truth is with (breeds depending on their maturity), you are to some extent, rolling the dice. Not all pups from a good litter grow into exceptional adults. Not every individual dog from healthy parents will stay sound, and as temperament testing is virtually unknown in the most breeding apparatus...good working temperament is elusive.

The truth sucks, but so does a useless, temperamental wreck of a dog...however pretty it may be".

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What is the group's opinion of breeders who produce puppies on a large scale that do not have many, if any, of their dogs in their breeding program. I'm not referring to puppy mills either, but working dog kennels.

Personally I don't like it. Would it stop me from buying "the" dog or pup from them? No. Would I try to find the dog elsewhere, yes.

I usually avoid questions like this because every breeder has their own program and what is important to group A may or may not be to group B.

I have had 3 litters and have kept back or made arrangements to retain some sort of breeding rights on each litter. But that is me, I have taken certain bloodlines that I'm working with and seeing what mixes well with what, and that's what I'm building my bloodline on. Other breeders will have a different plan.

It's kind of neat, right now at club we have 3 generations, Fetz, Princess Weasel and two weasels in waiting. Knowing Fetz (gramps) and knowing both parents as well as I do has really helped in the two young dogs. For instance the females were born mean and ready to bite the jute. The boys took longer to mature which I knew was normal. If not, at 6 months old I might of said active pet home for Bogie. And Bogie at 9 months old is not a dog you would want in a pet home.

I'll stop now. I love talking about breeding programs.

Betty, please don't stop! I'm interested in everyone's approach, opinions, and all of that good stuff.

I'm not currently looking for a working dog right now. But by next summer I hope to be. So I lurk and look at all the different breeder websites and try to read as much as I can. I know this doesn't substitute actually contacting the breeder and asking questions and going to check the dogs out, but I feel that I can learn a lot this way.

I'm not trying to refer to all people who breed large amounts of dogs as puppy mills. Just trying to understand a little more about breeding programs and people's different views and approaches. I want to know what people deem important in their breeding programs, why they think its important, and what they have to back it up.

This was a post made on observation of some breeding programs, but I'd love to hear more thoughts and personal experiences of people's own programs. Thats a pretty broad and general statement, so please feel free to interpret however!

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I'm not trying to refer to all people who breed large amounts of dogs as puppy mills.

I didn't take it that way. I know breeders that only have one or two litters a year and pretty much sell them to anyone that comes along with the bucks and try like crazy not to take a dog back and I know breeders that breed a lot more and are selective on their homes and will buy a pup back in a heartbeat if necessary. For *me* the latter is really important.

I have had people lambast me because I have bred untitled dogs and will again in the future. That's fine, that's what important to them and they should vote with their pocket book. Annabelle will be titled and Doc may or may not be. There are a lot of reasons I may not ever get the off leash control on him in bitework that is required in protection, most of them at my feet. He would do better with a stronger handler, I will not send him away for titling, and I do not have the stomach to do some of the things that may possibly be effective in order to possibly speed up the control issue. I have limitations physically, and skill wise for a dog like him. Ironically since we layed off on some of the heavy duty compulsion I do have a much more reliable dog and I am in a lot less danger of me or someone else ending up in the hospital.

So I continue working him, we take baby steps,(undoing someone elses training is a lot harder then doing it youself right the fist time around , and I learn a lot about an awesome creature that may of been euthanized if he had ended up with the wrong owner or could been competing very nicely by now if he had ended up with the right owner. I breed him and find out he produces better then I expected. I'm looking at a 10 month old male right now laying at my feet at my office that I think will make it a patrol dog.

For me, with my goals that is a good breeding. This is one I want to repeat and improve upon. I have a female kept back also and breeding rights on another and am very excited about breeding them in a year or so to an Arras son. For someone else, it is an example of the breeding that is ruining the breed in this country. And I can see a lot of validity to that viewpoint and really don't totally disagree with them.

So if my plans work my next generation breeding will have lines back to the three males that I love. Fetz, Doc, and Arras. How cool is that? And that litter will have close relatives active in police and real Search and Rescue. Fetz and Arras already have or will have shortly certified dogs and it looks like Doc will also.

But for me, if I was looking for a puppy I think my most important questions to the breeder would be along the lines of why this breeding? What do you want from each parent? What to you hope NOT to bring to the table from each parent? And if you are not holding back for your breeding program, why not.

And because I am what I am, instead of asking for references I would ask for the name of an owner that had to return a dog for what ever reason, or the name of an owner that had a problem. People can say they offer lifetime breeder support, or that they warranty certain health conditions but I will take real names any day over what is written in a contract.

But if you find someone's web site that you like don't by shy about contacting them and asking them questions. A lot of breeders will give a lot more information over the phone and talk a lot more freely. Unforturnately the dog world being what it is the internet is often used against people and many people are hesitate to post as freely as they once might of.

Betty I think that the decisions you've made for your breeding program are great and I totally understand them. You've done what personally suits you best, and it seems to be working out well.

The stud dogs you are using are producing dogs that actively work in real life and also do well in sport (I'm going to assume the latter). So as long as they are healthy and producing what they are, I don't see a reason as to why they have to be titled either.

While I understand why titles were made in the beginning, I think a lot of it goes back to what a lot of reputable coonhound hunters around here say: Breed what you hunt, and hunt what you breed.

Can any one explain to me what it means when one says that a dog would make a better stud dog than a sport dog? Does this sort of apply to your situation Betty?

I whole heartedly agree that it is important for a breeder to buy a pup back; I think that says a lot about the person and their ethics.

I love to learn and read about things like this from others. Thanks so much for sharing!