I have a 12 week old GSD who has high food drive, he will do just about anything i ask for a treat. His prey drive is good, but not as high as the food drive. At what point do i start to wean him off treats and move more to prey for training.

I plan on using him in SAR and have purchased the video, Building drive focus and grip.

Brian,
I would give him opportunities to focus on his prey drive ( like using the ball/toy/tug/rag attached to a buggy whip for a high degree of movement ) but if he prefers food rewards at this age, I wouldn't worry.
The key is to make the prey item attractive to him - give the dog a lot of choices to decide what item he likes best, and make sure the item moves in a jerky motion that triggers prey drive.

I trained my Mal puppy with mainly food until he was ten months old - he was a late bloomer for his prey drive, but now he'll kill for his ball.
It all comes with time, give your pup the chance to mature.

Good luck!

Thanks Will, i appreciate the quick response. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The whip is a great idea, my brother has horses and i got a whip from him a week ago. I tie a rag to the end and he goes nuts. Should i restrict the toys we play with or is it ok to allow him play with a bunch of toys when he is entertaining himself?

When we play it is usually with only a couple toys, i just bought the ball on string from Ed so when that gets here i plan i keeping our play to that and maybe a tug.

Can i eventually move him from food to all prey?

Excellent questions, Brian!
- one of the ways to keep prey drive high is to build frustration, and that entails restricting your pups access to the toys.
Make getting the toy a special moment for him - he does a behavior that you want and then you reward him with the toy. Working for the toy will teach your pup that his actions bring about rewards - a very important concept.

So basically, toys should not be just left laying around where your pup can get to him, nor should the pup have the toy for long periods of time. Keep chewing items ( I realize a puppy has to have those ) seperate from toys that he really wants, and save those special items to help invoke drive from him.

And to move the dog totally from food to prey item will always be your choice - i still reward downs with food as it's easier for me than using the toy - I just use the toy for the final reward with the release from the exercise.

And I love that buggy whip - I could never be fast enough to get some dogs into drive during the teaching phase ( I'd get dizzy first ) but the buggy whip solved that nicely.

Thanks Will, you're a big help and i really appreciate it.

Brian

Brian, something else to think about. AS Will stated, build with frustration. Your pup will be comming on teething soon. My pup is right in the middle of it now (5 months). I still tease the daylights out of him but I quit playing tug till he's through it. I'm also
SAR, and teasing him with the tug when he "finds" a victim is really starting to make him crazy for it. I also do the Flinks type of drive building with the "victim" teasing with the kong, and me holding his collar. That makes him really crazy. The difficulty on his finds is growing in leaps and bounds. I use food only when I'm teaching a new obd exercise.

Bob,

How about when you start tracking training, do you use any food. I havent started yet because my pup broke a toe and just got out of a split he had on for 3 weeks. Now i am in the process of building up the leg that was splinted. But when i do start and since his food drive is so high, i was planning on starting off with food in FST then going to prey for TTD. Any thoughts?

Brian, I don't use FST. I thought about it, but our dogs are air scenters and cadaver dogs. My 5 month old pup, Thunder, picked up tracking me so easily, that I didn't bother with FST. I can drop a shoe, shirt, etc 20 mins ahead of my dog and he'll zone in on me in a heart beat. He will use track, air scent, whatever is available to him. He's a total prey monster for his kong. That's why I use food in obd. The kong is to much distraction. IF I would have started in FST, I would have used food. I just started him today on "victims" other than me today. I'm going back to the beginning and letting him see the victim run away. They only difference I see right now is his bark indication is weaker with somone other than me. Weak indication is one of my pet peeves I see in many SAR dogs. Work on his "speak", down, or whatever his indication is going to be, as a totally separate exercise till he has it down pat. Then continue to work on it forever. The best athletes are the guys that constantly go over the basics. I'll work on his "speak" till one of us is dead. I've used the flinks method of drive building since Thunder was 7 wks old. At 5 months, it's really starting to kick in. The best advise I can give is be PATIENT, enjoy your pup, keep it short and have fun. It will happen.

Brian, the advice I got (SAR) was use whatever drive is strongest in your dog. There are some who say food is bad and that a food driven dog will shut down, but a lot of others who use a "vicim loyalty" approach where the victim rewards with whatever works best for the dog and many *do* use food succesfully.

As you build the prey drive, and your puppy matures, you may well find that it overpowers the food drive. You may not. Hopefully you are on a team, as they are best suited to help you.

We did FST (with food) then transitioned over to TTD at about 5 months. I kept her on lead until 9 months doing TTD problems because (1)she had a lot of learning to do concerning chasing critters (2) Many people I have talked with feel that the foundation in tracking first helps the dog focus on hunt instead of prey for finding the victim -- with the prey drive really being a critical part of the reward sequence, not the searching sequence.

A lot of people also do a victim in the box thing, much like the way narc and cadaver dogs are trained to focus on finding the scent instead of focus on the runaway. But runaways are needed to nail down the alert system and are great drive builders. We usually Do start a search training session with a short runaway to set the tone.

Also, I have heard (once again from not a few) that it is easier for a dog trained in tracking, then trailing to transition to air scent than a dog started in air scent to trail...and the dogs should be able to utlize any and all scenting skills in their 'toolkit'

IF you are already on a SAR team, PM me and I can get you to a good board specific to SAR dogs.

I totally agree with Bob an training the alert. From what I have seen, ambiguous alerts are THE weakest link. If you do the recall/refind, there are good techniques for backchaining the alert sequence and you should do that COMPLETELY independant of search problems then add in...and can start now on buidling the elements of the alert sequence(e.g., if you want your dog to bark, or jump on you, or whatever...etc....I am using a 'reverse bringsel' technique and love it.

But you use what clicks with your dog.