From what I remember, 3 seconds is the window of opportunity for any learning to take place, whether from positive or negative reinforcment. However, if you always wait 3 seconds, it will probably take a lot more repititions for the behavior to be learned. The closer you are in timing (preferrably instantly, prefferably when your dog is just thinking about it), the faster the dog learns. This has the added benefit of the correction that is needed is a much lower level; ie., stop the dog from chasing the squirrel with a harsh no, before he is committed to the chase, not when he is activly chasing after the squirrel and in drive, and requires an ecollar stim. And you are much more certain you are punishing the behaviour you don't want. The longer the interval between reinforcment and offered behaviour, the more fuzzy the connections are. But 3 seconds is the absolute max for ANY learning. I posted 3 secs because it took me a darn long time to organize it all; watch read my dog, interpret bahaviour, determine level and drive of the dog and appropriate level of compulsion, and recall how that level of compulsion effected the dog in the past. A lot to remember for a new trainer. I assumed he would figure that the faster, the better.

No, I don't advocate pronging the heck out of a puppy for not coming, either. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> There were a lot of things I did't get into in the post, tried to keep it to a min. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> With that said, I would try to get the dog used to feeling the prong around its neck, so it doesn't become 'prong wise', one of the mistakes I made. And it is possible to give a low level correction with a prong. Just needs a light touch! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Oops, nope, your right, I'm wrong. It is 1.5 secs. 3 secs is too long. Sorry, Ken. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Dementia setting in early... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Ken, don't misunderstand me. I have no problems "teaching" a young dog obedience exercises, and I'm sure you can train your dog to whatever level you wish. However, IMO you need to be careful at such a young age that you don't overdo it with the corrections. A young dog can learn very quickly and it should be fun for the dog. The dog should learn to "enjoy" the work. If you start putting prong collars on, and jerking him around with the leash, and stop rewarding the dog because now you think he know's the command and he should just do it, you will kill the dog's drive to work. Obedience then becomes repetitive, redundant, boring routine stuff to the dog. I'm not saying never give a dog a correction, but we ARE talking about a puppy here. I damn sure would give a firm correction to my dog that is an adult and know's better when he chooses to give me the finger and do what he wants instead of obeying a command. Just be realistic in your expectations and take his age into consideration is really all I'm trying to say. Build a good bond with your dog so he looks forward to being with you and enjoy's working for your attention. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And what John has moxt accuratly described is exactly what happened with my first dog. This is why I'm posting such long posts here. Training time for him meant boring, unpleasant, and most of all, no food. It makes a not too pretty picture when instead of bounding to the door, unable to control himself from excitement because the 'training prong collars' are coming out, the dog has to be commanded to your side, all the while ears are flat back, and he won't look in your eyes. You get the picture. It has taken me over a year to undo some of the damage I did in a few short weeks, and I had to switch to all inductive methods. Even so, the hyper young dog who jumped all over the place and wasn't afraid to make a mistake won't come back. But he's very obedient... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I do my best to keep the obedience time non-stressful for him.

I think he is past LEARNING the basic commands (sit, come, down). So we get to practice them throughout the day.

I've turned the down-stay into a game. There's a little shack in the field where I work, so I'll have him down on one side, and I'll take the leash around the corner, and peek. Usually if he gets up, I just say "noooooo down" and he goes back down. I've actually been able to walk all the way around this little shack without him getting up. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And I really want him to stick by me always, so sometimes when I see he isn't paying attention, I'll kind of hide from him and wait to see if he notices that I'm gone. When he finds me, I reward him. Sometimes I call him too and he comes and he's rewarded.

He sits before he goes outside and waits for the "OK", same thing coming inside.

Sometimes I just let him do his own thing, and just stand and observe him, and eventually he'll come to me and sit and look up.

I go for short walks with his drag line on, and I'll let him drag it, and he'll stick right near me--he doesn't take off or anything.

So what happened the other night really shocked me. I wondered if it was time to up the stakes some. I don't feel I need to use corrections as a method of really bringing him pain and making it a choice between "PAIN - Do what I want...No pain - do what I'm told". I feel the very occasional corrections I have given him to date (none at all today--occasional like I said) are more of a "WAKE UP-Pay Attention" type of thing, and I have used flat-leather collar.

From what I gather he's a pretty hard dog, because I will admit I have given him some decent pops, and he seemed more than happy to take food and praise and continue working afterwards.

Anyhow...I do appreciate everything everyone has said. I really want to get that other tape now but I fear I'll have to wait for Santa to bring it.

I'm wondering if there is anything else I can train in the meantime or if I should just keep working more distractions into the mix?

Ken,
It appears that you misunderstood my post. When you downed the pup and then left him by himself, it is possible that you may have set up a direct causal link, in the puppy's mind, between downing and being left by himself. Or maybe not even a direct causal link, but an association; the last time he downed, you left and he felt anxiety, creating an association between the down position and feeling unsafe. In other words, it was a result of stress. For whatever reason, the situation was too stressful for him to be able to comply with your demands.

At any rate, I think the most obvious answer is that your expectations are (or were, at the time) inappropriate.

 Quote:

Originally posted by Lisa Swanston:
Ken,
It appears that you misunderstood my post. When you downed the pup and then left him by himself, it is possible that you may have set up a direct causal link, in the puppy's mind, between downing and being left by himself. Or maybe not even a direct causal link, but an association; the last time he downed, you left and he felt anxiety, creating an association between the down position and feeling unsafe. In other words, it was a result of stress. For whatever reason, the situation was too stressful for him to be able to comply with your demands.

At any rate, I think the most obvious answer is that your expectations are (or were, at the time) inappropriate.

You could be right, I won't discount your thoughts. I was probably a bit snappy when this first happened because I was frustrated over the experience and I felt like you were trying to lecture me on leash law...and I apologize for coming across that way.

My dog is doing great and I don't think I'm giving him enough credit. Everyone I come into contact with comments on how good he is doing and I haven't been paying much credence to what they say...I think I do need to just relax a little and let him be a puppy---but that doesn't mean he can't learn in the process. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

To be honest, I'm less concerned about the leash law than I am about my dogs' safety (not to mention my liability, should my dog either intentionally or even accidentally cause injury to someone). When I was a homeless teenager, I had a 110lb. black male Shepherd mix for protection (it's rough out there on the streets). He didn't need to be protection trained because his presence was enough of a deterrent to the creepy types. All the creepy looking thug types would cross the street to avoid me when they saw my dog. If I was sleeping outdoors somewhere, my dog would bark if he heard anyone moving around in the night. I never got propositioned as a prostitute when my dog was with me (for some reason, creepy men seem to think that any woman walking down the street in a particular neighborhood is a whore; they'll follow you in their car for several blocks before pulling over to ask if you want to "party"). Anyway, because I didn't have anywhere to live and he was with me all the time, I had to leave him tied up outside if I went into an establishment, just to eat or pee or buy something. Here are some examples of things that happened while he was tied up outside just for a few minutes:

A group of drunk frat boys untied him and let him inside the store.

I walked out of the store to find a bum teasing him, trying to provoke him to bite.

I walked outside to find someone feeding him a chocolate donut.

So I guess I have a little bit of experience to back up my concerns that a dog who is left unattended in a public place is at risk for being messed with. I just don't trust people, even well intentioned but extremely ingorant ones who might think it's okay to let their little kids run up and throw their arms around the doggy's neck. Things happen in just a matter of seconds, and there is no way you can get back out there fast enough to prevent many of those potential things from happening, even if you can still see the dog through the window.

Sorry if that came across as a lecture on the leash law.

Good luck with your pup. Remember to have fun.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />