Thanks Alyssa,
I already tried that idea though; well a version of it anyway. I'd just walk out to the end of the field, make sure my dog saw me dropping the orbee, then discreetly picked it up and hid it in my coat without him noticing it, before returning to him.

He went out perfectly. Even after going through several heeling and retrieving exercises first.

Problem is, I couldn't transition from that to not going out to the spot in the first place.

I hope I can get Steve's method to work. Maybe if my dog keeps finding the orbee where I send him - even without having seen it being placed beforehand - it'll convince him that I know what I'm pointing at and to just go where I say already!! Lol.

I'd like to see video of these finished toy-contingent methods (rather, toy-at-target).

I don't think it lends itself to a degree of generalization above that of Schutzhund (where you get to rehearse on the same field).

Problems I've already encountered with the toy:

-The send-away command becoming synonymous with a plain-old release. Meaning, once the dog is going, despite what it does in the interim, the reward is still accessible. Not straight? Not fast? Starts casting around for the scent of the toy? Too bad. There is no inherent control over reward access.

-As mentioned, only one criterion can be effectively shaped at a time, so control over that which one you intend to shape is lost with the lack of control over reward access. I'm addressing:
--Understanding the concept of your cue for direction
--anticipation
--straight
--fast
--reliably recalled or downed

I've been watching Belgian ring send-aways, and it finally dawned on me how simple it can be for a ring-sport venue. I'm talking about two days of work making up for previous months of spinning my wheels with other stuff. Of course, this isn't neccesarily the same method I'd use for Schutzhund.

If it's not raining, I'll see if I can videotape it tomorrow.

So I guess, that's the question...what is your venue? The stated rules make a difference here.

For me it is nothing more then a rehearsed part of a routine on the same 3 fields I work on it. Same direction, same location.
Strictly for schutzhund. I've watched the video's of your dog and I'll say I'd be happier then **** with that send out but if you've come accross an improvement on that, I'd really appreciate anything you can share so I can do it better with my Shepherd.

A couple of sends without toy or touch-pad.

My thing is to NOT send him to the same spot twice. The he starts gettting fixated on one particular tree in the distance, or one fence post, or god knows what else. However, I guess with the possibility of warm-ups in Schutzhund that would be exactly what you want, eh?

The trade-off is that I doubt I'll ever get the speed of having a toy down yonder....but the recalls are easy.

The crux seems to be understanding the concept of direction. The next thing I've started is having his body face one direction, then turn his head to another. Then over and past stuff. etc

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v15/keinhaar/?action=view&current=send1.flv

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v15/keinhaar/?action=view&current=send2.flv

Wow, those are some impressive send aways! Not much speed loss from not having the toy out there either.

Trained with touch pads?

Need more details )

Without.

 Quote: steven lepic

Without.

That does NOT qualify as "more details".

I know that you can be more talkative than that when you want to be - c'mon, more already

Ok nevermind, took it to PMs )

I'm training the send out for SchH -- so I do want my dog to go out fast and straight in the same direction everytime.

Watching practice times at the WUSV last Fall -- the send out was an exercise that just about every competitor I saw included in their 5 minute practice time on the field. I want to say most, if not all, of them used a toy reward placed out on the field.

Yuko, yes, the orbee ball is always "out there" hung on a little metal post right on the tree line at the outer edge of our training field when I practice. I have started to vary her seeing me put it out there and other times not.

Trial day will be the only time it won't be there; but my down command will come before she ever reaches that spot.

Katie

 Quote: katie o'connor

yes, the orbee ball is always "out there" hung on a little metal post right on the tree line at the outer edge of our training field when I practice. I have started to vary her seeing me put it out there and other times not.

Trial day will be the only time it won't be there; but my down command will come before she ever reaches that spot.

Ok, that's what I figured. Thanks Katie.