Tommy DeVito wrote 04/10/2009 03:02 AM Re: Auto response without command [Re: Melissa Hoyer ] #235741 - 04/10/2009 03:02 AM
Tommy DeVito Webboard User Reg: 12-09-2008 Posts: 60 Loc: Texas Offline	I am happy enough that my prior training has been instilled that behaviors without a command are welcomed in the house, but not outside the house during training sessions. My dog will go to her crate and sit in it while I prepare her dinner. Occasionally I'll have to say "zwinger" when she thinks I'm taking too long to get the meal ready. But she does this on her own, returns to the crate by default. I'm very happy with that. I like not having to issue a command to get her to do something in the house. She also does this by default at doors by sitting and waiting. I'm actually trying to teach her to sit at every street corner while on walks and look both ways before crossing. Most of the time I have to tell her to sit but once in a while now, she'll do it on her own. Sitz, achtung, then I look around and she watches me look each way. I want her to do this on her own provided she ever escapes the leash, gets out, etc. Even if she doesn't I want her to do this on her own for safety reasons for me and her.
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Jennifer Lee wrote 04/10/2009 11:20 AM Re: Auto response without command [Re: Tommy DeVito ] #235768 - 04/10/2009 11:20 AM
Jennifer Lee Webboard User Reg: 12-16-2007 Posts: 2851 Loc: oklahoma Offline	Tanith, Thank you for explaining that further, it makes total sense! I think that when Yote is older, has more self control and is not so spastic I will be more consistent about asking for a different behavior if he offers an automatic one, just to keep him on his toes and mentally active. But right now I am just happy when he does something he knows he is supposed to do. Being calm and still is a real challenge for him especially when something exciting like food or a walk is coming.
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Wendy Lefebvre wrote 04/15/2009 02:45 PM Re: Auto response without command [Re: Melissa Hoyer ] #236249 - 04/15/2009 02:45 PM
Wendy Lefebvre Webboard User Reg: 12-08-2005 Posts: 1271 Loc: Stoney Creek , Ontario, Canada Offline	Quote: melissa hoyer . These are behaviors that the dog automatically gives you when he wants something from you or doesn't know what to do and is asking for information." for me that says the whole problem with it right in those 5 words. The dog wants something from you so he sits & you give it to him. To me that falls under the same category as the dog nudging you and you petting him. You don't do what the dog wants, he does what you want. NILF is making the dog do something YOU want in order to get a reward of some sort. If he sits before you give a command thats not him working for it, it's him getting something for free becasue he wasn't ASKED to do it by you. but im sure its more of a personal thing. I just mix it up. He can sit before I give him food if he wants, but he's not going to get it until he does something I asked him to do. so i'll make him stand or down. Don't complain....TRAIN!!!
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Tracy Collins wrote 04/15/2009 05:35 PM Re: Auto response without command [Re: Wendy Lefebvre ] #236280 - 04/15/2009 05:35 PM
Tracy Collins Webboard User Reg: 10-09-2008 Posts: 1917 Loc: St. Louis, Missouri Offline	Quote: for me that says the whole problem with it right in those 5 words. The dog wants something from you so he sits & you give it to him. To me that falls under the same category as the dog nudging you and you petting him. You don't do what the dog wants, he does what you want. I think it is situational and not quite so black and white. Here's another way to look at it. Dog wants out of his crate, but you won't open the door until he calms himself and sits without you asking for it. Or dog wants dinner. Or dog wants to go outside. In those situations, who is deferring to whom? In each situation, the dog WANTS to be a wiggle-butt--that is their natural inclination. Owner wants a quiet dog. Dog chooses to sit quietly in order to get out of the crate, get the food, or go outside. I'd say the human set the terms of the "game" and both got what they wanted. Remember, the sit had to be trained first, and the dog is still doing what the owner wants---even if the owner doesn't ask for it. Both parties understand the rules. I happen think that self-calming is an important skill for dogs to have, so that they don't have to look to me for every cue. It may be different for dogs being trained for work or sport, but for well-behaved house dogs, it's a good skill to have. Cinco | Jack | Fanny | Ellie | Chip | Deacon
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Lynne Barrows wrote 04/16/2009 07:59 AM Re: Auto response without command [Re: Nora Ferrell ] #236338 - 04/16/2009 07:59 AM
Lynne Barrows Webboard User Reg: 09-22-2007 Posts: 2531 Loc: S. Florida Offline	Quote: Nora Ferrell The question was, if the dog automatically sits for things trained, ie, before leashing, feeding, etc. Should you give command anyway, reward, or what? Nora, I think that this depends on the specific situation. For behaviors related to pack structure, I want an automatic or nearly automatic response. ie., When we get ready for a walk,('Let's go, girl!') Chula sits a few feet from the door, waits for me to put her prong collar and leash on, and waits until I give a release for her to cross the threshhold of the door. I don't need to give her a command for these responses, other than the release. I don't reward for these either. This is a form of the 'Premack Principle'. (see the link for an explanation) Same thing for dinner; she sits and when she gives me eye contact, I give her the release to eat. No command given. For me, in those situations, I want the auto-response with little or no verbal command. This is what is expected of her, and she knows that to get what she wants, she must offer those behaviors. The Premack Principle
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Nora Ferrell wrote 04/16/2009 10:41 AM Re: Auto response without command [Re: Lynne Barrows ] #236358 - 04/16/2009 10:41 AM
Nora Ferrell Webboard User Reg: 02-10-2008 Posts: 727 Loc: Kentucky Offline	Thanks, Lynne. She auto sits for the leash to go out, dinner, etc. So, I'm probably happy with that. But she also sits for anything. I guess since that's the first thing she learned. So, I have started no treating for those times (except to mark) and ask for something else. Thanks for the link, too. Thanks to all for all the great comments.
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Denise Skidmore wrote 04/16/2009 10:57 PM Re: Auto response without command [Re: Nora Ferrell ] #236453 - 04/16/2009 10:57 PM
Denise Skidmore Webboard User Reg: 12-04-2007 Posts: 197 Loc: Western NY Offline	Quote: Nora Ferrell But she also sits for anything. I guess since that's the first thing she learned. So, I have started no treating for those times (except to mark) and ask for something else. If you continue to mark without the occasional reward, the mark will loose it's effectiveness. Either this is a behavior you want to re-enforce, or it's not. I'm guessing you don't want your dog chasing you around the house and sitting and staring at you every time you stop moving, which is what you'd get on an optimal reward schedule. She already knows sit, you can stop marking her for doing it when it's not wanted.
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Nora Ferrell wrote 04/16/2009 11:40 PM Re: Auto response without command [Re: Denise Skidmore ] #236454 - 04/16/2009 11:40 PM
Nora Ferrell Webboard User Reg: 02-10-2008 Posts: 727 Loc: Kentucky Offline	I'm not sure what I meant by that, but what I mean is if she sits and it's not the right one, I just say good girl and then ask her for the one I want her to do. By mark (like sitting for the leash) I just say good girl, no treat. I don't treat for sitting anymore unless I specifically ask for it. But I do say good girl and usually give a pat or rub. Is the right?
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Denise Skidmore wrote 04/17/2009 10:32 AM Re: Auto response without command [Re: Nora Ferrell ] #236472 - 04/17/2009 10:32 AM
Denise Skidmore Webboard User Reg: 12-04-2007 Posts: 197 Loc: Western NY Offline	Quote: nora ferrell By mark (like sitting for the leash) I just say good girl, no treat. Oh. That's different. I consider verbal praise to be a moderate value reward all on it's own. It's not like you're using a clicker or something which has a neutral meaning before it is "charged".
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