OK.... it isn't a raw diet question but....

I had one of my dogs at the vet the other day for his shots and exam. She asked what I feed my dogs and I said Orijen Kibble. She asked if it was a grain free kibble (it is.)

Now before I go on, my vet does allopathic medicine but also some alternative medicine - Chinese herbs, acupuncture, does not do yearly vaccines (it's every 3 years). She also goes to many conferences and seminars and courses all over the U.S. Yes - they do still sell Hill's food in their office, but I still think my vet is probably more educated than most (allopathic vets) in respect to natural health.

Anyway, she said she had been at a conference just recently where a researcher was noticing a correlation between high protein diets (40+% protein) and incidence of kidney disease. The study was not completed nor anything published. But my vet said to be careful feeding a food (kibble?) that is 45% protein. Dogs should have a diet that is 30% protein, 30% carbs, 30% vegetables and 10% organ meat.

The interesting thing is that one of my dogs (not the dog I had in that day) does indeed seem to have a bit of a kidney thing. She had a slightly high kidney value on her blood test last year, but a urine sample was normal. I have to take in another urine sample of hers soon so we can keep an eye on her. She also has a kind of sour body smell to her.

Orijen is the first grain-free food I have fed my dogs. In the past I have fed Wellness, Innova, and Canidae. I have fed Orijen since Canidae changed its formula last summer.

Should I switch her, and the other dogs, to a lower-protein food? I cannot afford to feed raw, so it would have to be something kibble or maybe canned. Suggestions? My vet only said to watch the protein content of the food I'm feeding, not that I had to switch them, and she didn't try to sell me Hill's or anything like that, but I'd like to be educated and informed when it comes to my dogs' health.

If anyone has any information about protein and its effect on the kidneys of dogs I would really like to read it/research it. Thanks!!!

My understanding is that most research indicates it is not low-protein diets that are beneficial to dogs with CRF or kidney disease, but HIGH-QUALITY protein which is important.

I feed my senior cat with CRF grain-free (high-protein) food and he's doing better than he has in years.

What in the blood results was showing as high? Was it the BUN (urea)? If so, I wouldn't necessarily be concerned as long as other kidney values like creatine checked out as normal.

You are feeding a kibble diet, but a kibble diet based on raw principles.

Remember that the norms of CBC tests and blood tests in general were developed using dogs fed traditional (i.e., lower-protein, and not grain-free) kibble. As a result, the norms are based on dogs eating deficient (IMO) diets.

I went through this with Teagan's results a month and a half ago and I'll go through it again, I'm sure, with Luc in a few weeks. Her results were fine except for her BUN, which was elevated.

Here's a site that has some studies on the norms found in raw-fed dogs: http://www.dogaware.com/misc.html
(scroll down to the blood test and urinanalysis results section).

They have some studies that show that it is normal for raw-fed dogs to have elevated BUN. I would expect to see the same for a dog fed Orijen.

As long as all the other blood levels are normal, I personally wouldn't be too inclined to worry and would continue feeding as I had been.

QUOTE: Anyway, she said she had been at a conference just recently where a researcher was noticing a correlation between high protein diets (40+% protein) and incidence of kidney disease. END

Recently? Seriously?

This theory has been part and parcel of the vet world since I was young -- we're talking many moons ago.

Here is a start for research:
http://www.dogaware.com/kidney.html#protein

I would like very much to learn about the conference speaker and his take on the ash, phosphorous, and sodium in the diets where he mentions only protein. No sarcasm. I see a big hole in his presentation, or in the interpretation made by the vet who spoke to you.

Thanks for the great links, I will definitely be reading up this weekend! I thought I had heard that low protein diets weren't necessarily required for kidney health (my cat died of renal failure so I did a bit of reading when he was sick).

Yes, Jennifer, I do believe it was her BUN that was a bit high, but her urine test was fine. So thanks for that info. I will be doing another full blood panel and T4 on her this year so I will be sure to get the exact results.

Connie - yes it was recently, and I honestly wish I had more information about who the vet was and exactly what she said. If I remember correctly what my vet told me, it was someone who worked at some kind of specialty clinic or doing a specific study and they saw that the dogs with kidney problems were fed a high protein diet. My vet indicated it was some kind of trend they noticed, and were looking into; not something that was published or completed. That is all I know.

Because I know so little about what this vet actually saw/researched, I decided not to act on it until/if my own research concurs; at this point, it does not, but I still like to be informed. Thanks muchly for the resources.

High protein might well have been an aspect of a diet in which another factor was the true culprit (if indeed diet was the common factor).

Can you get your test numbers? I'd just call and ask to have them read. "I forgot to get a copy" is enough.

Which one was high (and how high) is the critical item, as Jennifer points out.

All JMHO.

I went on a training seminar a while ago where the speaker said diets of over 20% of protein causes / contributes to most behaviour issues.

 Quote: Tanith Wheeler

I went on a training seminar a while ago where the speaker said diets of over 20% of protein causes / contributes to most behaviour issues.

What? Where? When? Why?

Thanks.

That's what I said - it was a sheep dog trainer in England, she couldn't offer any evidence other than her own opinion / experiences but I wonder how many people went home and changed their diets?

It might have been a coincidence because most of the low protein diets readily available tend to be better quality than those with higher levels.

 Quote: Tanith Wheeler

I went on a training seminar a while ago where the speaker said diets of over 20% of protein causes / contributes to most behaviour issues.

 Quote: Tanith Wheeler

she couldn't offer any evidence other than her own opinion / experiences

That 2nd quote would've been much better suited attached to the original statement.:wink:

 Quote: tanith wheeler

I went on a training seminar a while ago where the speaker said diets of over 20% of protein causes / contributes to most behaviour issues.

Interesting that anyone would invite a trainer to lecture on nutrition. (Or, more likely, maybe she just snuck in this ludicrous theory.)

Disclaimer: I'm not a vet.

But I've been researching canine nutrition quite seriously, including at university level, for a loooong time, and this "theory" flies in the face of everything I have learned.

I'm a pretty experienced trainer, too (although certainly not on a level with many members here), and again, this flies in the face of everything I have learned.

It belongs in the same file with the earth-is-flat material.

No one spoke up and said "What is the correlation?"