You guys are all making me dizzy. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I can see what Deanna,VanCamp and Josh are saying and if you consider what the true definition of "compulsion' is then I agree with them. I just don't think that's what the average person thinks of though when they think of compulsion. They think purely in a physical correction sense. Of course that dosen't make it correct. I'm still dizzy. This subject could go on forever.

As an "average Joe" my initial understanding of compulsion was purely as a physical tool. Then I started the "Compulsion as a dog training tool" thread. There were some great answers and debates there as well. Yes, I can now see that compulsion/induction can take many forms and there really is no right way to define it. Although I believe in "purely positive training" in principle, all dog training IS bending the will of the dog to a purpose that suits your needs (compelling). Whether your form of "compulsion" is a "yank and crank" or a toy/food/praise , it's still the same in the grand scheme of things. Of course the latter examples are the types of compulsion that work "with" you and your dog IMHO, rather than "against". You'll also feel better at the end of a training session if you belong to the "positive reinforcement" camp.

Here's another example. Dog gets into garbage, you come upon the mess, and scold him. This is punishment, as you are not showing him what you DO want, but rather, are reacting to something he did. There is no compulsion, because you are not forcing him to do anything.
You see dog sniffing around the garbage, you say "Hey, get outta there!". Dog moves away from garbage, you praise him. That would be a correction. Where is the compulsion????

Another interesting thing I saw on a video was this guy training a GSD as a seeing eye dog. They're walking along on the sidewalk, dog on a flat buckle collar and lead; no prong. They come upon some pipes that are sticking out at human head level. The dog doesn't notice them, and keeps walking, so the "blind" person pretends to bang his head on the pipes and be hurt. The dog looks up in surprise, as if to say "Oops, my bad!". The handler takes a few steps back, to try again. This time, the dog stops at the pipes, and the handler praises him. The correction is the handler pretending to be hurt, then trying again. The dog is shown what he did wrong, and given the opportunity to get it right. There is no compulsion here. The dog's correction is the human's actions. If the dog fails, human gets hurt. If the dog succeeds, human praises him.

This one could go on forever. Technically, like VanCamp said, any correction should be considered compulsion, though I don't think this is what the majority of trainers have in mind when they think of compulsion. I don't think a verbal correction is what most have in mind when they think of compulsion. I think there are good arguments on both ends.

Swanston, what do you mean "where is the compulsion". You just forced the dog to stop doing what he was doing by using punishment. You just compelled the dog to stop. Compulsion is what you were doing, punishment was how you did it.

Comulsion doesn't have to be something that you want the dog to do (i.e. going to a down position) it can also be making the dog stop doing somehting you don't want it to do. Correcting a dog for forging in the heel, or yelling at fido to stop getting into the trash. Compulsion and punishment are not two things.

One of us is not understanding what compulsion is. I don't see how scolding a dog is compulsion. You're not forcing him to do anything, or stop doing anything. You're just yelling at him. That's not force.

I agree that you can use compulsion to make a dog stop doing something. Restraint is a good example. Say the dog tries to bolt through the door, you catch him by the collar or the skin on his neck and haul his @$$ back inside. That's compulsion. The dog does not have a choice.

I think you are using the term in a very broad sense, that anything that influences a dog's behavior is compulsion. Where I disagree, is that I don't believe that it can be compulsion unless the dog has NO CHOICE.

Thanks LSwanston - this is exactly what I have had trouble wrapping my head around when everyone tells me that everything is compulsion - and I don't buy it. I am not a trainer, but I don't think that matters.

Well, this thread is getting long, tired, and stale... we have all gone in circles, and still don't agree...truth be known, we never will... so I feel compelled to close this.

The only thing two dog trainers will agree on, is what the third dog trainer is doing wrong....

P.S. when my schnauzer was consistantly trash raiding and I yelled at her, she would not get prasied for moving away... rather I would mutter something about loading my gun and she would go to her room.... I wonder why she is gun shy... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />