Hi All,

I've been following this thread from the beginning. Some very interesting posts. The mystical technique that Dennis is describing sounds alot like a system of training that a friend and fellow trainer that I train with uses. It is called "The Third Way" developed by a lady named Chris Bach. She has a web site, does seminars, etc. I'm actually in a big rush right now heading to lunch with a group of dog trainers I meet with weekly. I'll check back in when I get home.

Craig

Not to be too rude, but Chris Bach's website tries to put another mystical spin on a straightforward subject. It's all salesmanship. Make your program seem different and therefore better than everyone else's. Why else would anyone come seek you out? You have to separate yourself from the crowd when it's how you make your living. But learning theory is learning theory, and it doesn't matter if it's the much maligned white lab rat or children.

Bingo

Lee, no rudeness taken here.

I was not promoting, advocating or endorsing The Third Way. I merely noticed the more Dennis described his method the more similar if not identical it sounds to the eye contact game that Chris promotes. I will admit I have watched a couple of her videos but most of my experience comes from training with a friend who uses her methods almost exclusively. When I say train with, I don't mean in a pupil student relationship. We both compete in obedience and get together and work our dogs. I will admit to being intrigued by the foundation games including the eye contact game and the way it's presented. I'm very for the emphasis on very positive learning techniques. Where it loses me is the absence of the traditional correction phase. I guess I'm just not ready to give up my e-collar yet.

Now back to the original thread and it's question, What do you think of this heeling technique? Well I hate to use a dirty word but it sounds like basic Koehler to me. With probably less emphasis on hard correction and hopefully more emphasis on reward. Will it work, yes, is it the best, probably not. Could the finish product look as good as the best, probably with the right dog and a very good trainer that was able to correlate the right level and timing of correction and present the right reward in the right manner.

What specifically kept me coming back to this thread was to see if anyone would bring up something similar to how I do it. I can't believe I'm all alone here so this next part is two fold.

1. A question to the board: does anyone else train the heel this way or a similar variation?

2. My heeling technique: I start by teaching the dog to go from a front sit to a heel position preferably with no leash or collar and in a calm, quiet environment preferably with food (but a toy would work too). While making a sweeping arm motion and giving the comand to heel meanwhile coaxing, teasing, luring the dog over to heel position. Then upon approaching the heel position while still standing raising my hand above their head while giving the sit comand previously taught and then instantly rewarding the minute their butt hits the ground. As the dog learns the exercise I start limiting the arm movement more and more till there is none. My next step would be to teach the dog to move up to the heel position from a rear position. This can be tried off leash but may require a leash and flat collar to guide the dog up. It would work like this, Leave the dog in a sit stay, walk 4 to 5 feet in front of the dog, then command the dog to heel. Lure, guide, coax the dog into position and reward. Now that I've taught the dog to assume the heel position from two different positions it's time to actually try and move forward. With usually a flat collar or a choke collar on the dead ring and a very tight leash (not giving the dog room to move out of position) We make forward movement of 4 to 5 feet get the dog to sit and reward. After several reps and I'm able to loosen up on the leash and the dog maintains heel position, I incorporate turns. I know this probably sounds a little slower than other methods and it probably is in the front end but in the long run I feel the transition to off leash is easier. I have to add a word of caution, for those that like to use a separate word for their finish comand verses their forward movement comand, for this style I advocate using the same. It does little good to teach the heel position using one comand to lay a foundation for forward movement with a separate comand. I use heel for both, but one could add a separate comand later no problem.

Ok, let me have it, but be gentle.

Craig

Thanks Lee,that was great advice.Always rewarding the dog above the shoulders for eye contact is NOT the right thing to do.By not ever seperating the reward with the eye contact the dog misses out on the individual importance of the eyecontact.Doing things like holding the reward at arms length or leaving it on the ground in plain view all the while demanding eyecontact and not letting your prey driven maniac to stare at the reward(ball) its a great exercise to build only the eyecontact.Thanks Lee I feel so stupid for not thinking of that on my own.I think this also is what Dennis was talking about but I got lost between the gravitational pull of the moon and the tides of the ocean.Only kidding Dennis!

I must tell you all I am not at all a follower of some new age training method or their ideology. The method described has merits. I am glad David you were able to see more clearly (thanks to Lee) the point I was making. I think know you have the concept you can read my post again and it will make more sense.

Please do not think I am some sort of peddling fool for a ripe dog training market. I have nothing to sell.

But what I will do is be a driving force in behavior and training for my own reasons. I think in time you will find most of my advice worthy of this forum and the people who read it. I can and will have a reason for my training advice. It will not come from some mystic source unless you call science mystical. If you want to improve you need to be open to the idea of improvement. I look at this forum as that opportunity to challenge my own thoughts on some subjects and rethink methodology. Draw a line with attacks however and a fool will fit his clothes.

Dennis, it's not your message, it's the language you couch it in. Try being more to the point, more straightforward. Cut to the chase and people will follow you better.

Craig, there are a million roads to Rome; haven't seen anyone work in that particular way, but if it works for you, great. I'm curious why you lure the dog, off leash, to heel at first, but then go to a very tight leash after that?

I am confused as to why formal language is considered smoke and mirrors....

I have not found Dennis's language to be overly "fancy"...

somewhat detailed? yes... but superflous? NAH!

just my $.02

Lee: What I'm talking about in the first part of my description is teaching the finish first. So when I speak of luring the dog to the heel position, first from the front then from the rear, I remain stationery. The next part is where I mention a tight leash and this refers to the first forward movement together actual heeling. I feel like I should explain why and how I came to do it this way. Due to a disability I do all of my training from a power wheelchair. The kind you control with a joy stick. The joy stick is mounted on my left side. I also built a holder for my e-collar transmitter on the right side of my chair. My goal is to have the dog heeling off leash and able to understand an e-collar correction for improper heeling as soon as possible. When teaching the heel with leash and collar or long line and collar, the correction itself has a tendancy to bring the dog back into proper position, but an e-collar correction is just there. Most people would, I assume, when first working a dog with an e-collar for heeling would have them on a leash and when the dog was out of position they could apply the e-collar and if need be with the leash manipulate the dog back into position thus teaching the dog how to respond to a correction and turn off the e-collar by assuming the correct position. Considering I have only two hands, one has to control the chair the other either leash or e-collar, I do it this way to try and lay a foundation so the dog knows what the heel position is before ever actually heeling. Another thing I do is I take approximately a 28" leash (remember I'm sitting down) and slip it up my left arm to my bicep, thus allowing me to drive my chair, work my e-collar and have my dog on a leash. But it doesn't make for a very good correction. What I am able to do, considering the wheel chair is quite powerful and is over 400 lbs with me in it and turns very sharp, if the dog is lagging, forging or swinging wide I can turn on a dime take off and apply e-collar with a taut leash and this also helps the dog understand what the correction was for and how to avoid it. Often times by teaching the finish first from a couple different locations and using the same command for forward movement as I did the finish and also taking into account that the dog has already been conditioned to know how to turn off the collar by coming to the handler or turning of the collar by going away from the handler, like to a crate. It's amazing how fast they can understand by simply applying the ecollar and recomanding the heel. With all this e-collar talk I don't want people to think I'm not for motivational training. On the same holder with my e-collar transmitter is my treat tub and I have a backpack full of tugs, balls and toys.

Matt: I hope you or Dennis do not think I was being derogatory to Dennis. That was not my intentions. Several days back after reading one of Dennis's first posts I turned to my wife and said "It looks like we have a new and very articulate and intelligent member on the board". I immediately went to his profile and looked at his other posts and enjoyed them. But after being a long time daily, mostly observer, on this board I think what goes over better here, is to give us the hows first and the whys or theories later, either on your own or through follow ups on questions by others. Sometimes it's a little deflating to read a whole bunch of albeit articulate and well written theories only to arrive at the same place we've already been.

Craig