From my experience with bladder stones I know it's very frustrating. Especially with the type Andy formed. There really isnt a whole lot of absolute answers. Every vet I dealt with contacted specialists with questions. I was surprised how easily I could change his PH from one extreme to the other.

Because these are struvite crystals, I don't think I would try to change the diet to change PH until you've followed through with the treatment the Vet prescribes. It took less then a week for Andy to have 3 Cystine stones along with struvite crystals.

Update:

I spoke to the technician that was at the desk one day, and she informed me that they didn't need to do the needle to get urine for a culture, I could do a clean catch. So after forever trying to get a pee sample (she only pees in the evenings after they are closed, and if I walk her to try and encourage her, she "marks" and getting a clean catch that is more than a few drips is really hard)...

I finally brought a pee sample in only to be told the could NOT do a culture with this kind of urine, but they could do another urinalysis with what I brought in so I said OK.

The results were that the struvites are still present and her pH is now 9 (!). They insist I do not need a urine culture because she has no signs of an infection (bacteria within normal parameters, no or few white blood cells). She is going in Thursday for an x-ray to see if she has any stones.

The tech I talked to this time (a different one) spoke to the vet and said that this issue is caused by her diet. She is getting way too much protein.

I spoke the vet about her diet when I was in with the dog in August. I was feeding Orijen at the time and the vet didn't like that at all because it is 45% protein which she felt is much too high. That is when her urine pH was 8. I have since (about 2 months) switched to Innova which has a protein of 24% and now her pH is 9?. I told the tech this and she replied that it was still definitely to do with her diet. I asked if there could be any other cause for her pH being high and she said no. I asked about doing a urine culture and she insisted there is NO reason to suspect a bladder infection. (They tend to shy away from doing unnecessary procedures, but might do it if I insisted).

What do you guys think? Still an infection? When I take the dog for x-rays on Thursday should I insist on having her urine taken with a needle? Or could it be something other than infection? I really don't think it could be her diet but the clinic insists it is the only possible thing.....? The tech suggested if we couldn't get her pH down they would recommend some food with an "acidifier" (probably hill's) which I really don't want to do.

"Because bladder infections lead to high alkaline urinary pH and struvite crystals, many people, including many vets, make the mistake of treating the problem by acidifying the diet. But that is confusing cause and effect. Alkaline pH and struvite crystals are not caused by a diet of alkaline foods; they are usually caused by bladder infections. "

http://www.b-naturals.com/newsletter/bladder-stones-crystals/

Lew Olson knows whereof she speaks, IMO.

She adds:

If your dog has struvite bladder stones, then acidifying the diet, along with treating the infection, can help dissolve the stones.

"I told the tech this and she replied that it was still definitely to do with her diet. I asked if there could be any other cause for her pH being high and she said no."

This is a tech who should NOT be giving out advice. That's a flat-out incorrect statement.

Also, from earlier:

From Manual of Nephrology by Schrier:

"Struvite stones are also known as infection stones" and that they occur only from "infection by urea-splitting organisms that secrete urease."


Edited by Connie Sutherland (10/26/2009 02:19 PM)
Edit reason: "Also, from earlier"

 Quote: angela burrell

.... I spoke the vet about her diet when I was in with the dog in August. I was feeding Orijen at the time and the vet didn't like that at all because it is 45% protein which she felt is much too high. That is when her urine pH was 8. I have since (about 2 months) switched to Innova which has a protein of 24% and now her pH is 9?. I told the tech this and she replied that it was still definitely to do with her diet. I asked if there could be any other cause for her pH being high and she said no. I asked about doing a urine culture and she insisted there is NO reason to suspect a bladder infection. (They tend to shy away from doing unnecessary procedures, but might do it if I insisted). ...

A urine culture = "an unnecessary procedure" ? It's a lab test.

I'm blown away that the whole dialog you posted took place, with insistence on lowering the protein to lower the pH, so you cut the protein in half and the pH goes up .... but still, they blame the protein.

Thanks for coming to my rescue yet again, Connie. I am going to print that article out in its entirety and bring it in. My vet, to her credit, does like to keep learning and always goes to conferences and does research to try and keep up on the latest. She also does Chinese medicine and acupuncture. I am sure if I give her that article she will read it with a fairly open mind.

I will insist on the culture.

By unnecessary procedure I meant the fact that they will be sticking a large needle into her belly which will at best be uncomfortable and will most likely be painful to the dog. Something like a stool sample or regular urinalysis where the dog doesn't even have to be examined would not have been any issue. But even for blood tests they first ask if I suspect anything or have any reason for doing one. (Even if I answer no, just routine, they usually do it without fuss, but they have seemed a bit resistant to doing the culture because in their eyes, there is NO evidence whatsoever that she needs one and it is an invasive thing).

My vet will be doing surgeries on Thursday but likely I will have a chance to talk to her directly, and I will give her the article and insist on having a urine culture done, even if I have to make another appointment to return.

ETA: In addition to changing her food I have been encouraging her to drink more water by soaking her kibble and by setting up a pet water fountain that she likes. So I think at this point I feel that I have done what the vet asked me to at our last appointment, so something is not right here. Thanks again Connie.

Well, also I take away from all that I read, the fact that struvite crystals (without stones) and high pH are not uncommon among healthy dogs.

Your last post makes me think that discussing all this with the vet might produce a plan of action. Maybe most of the statements that particularly bothered me, anyway, were made by the tech. You would be unlikely to embark on any dramatic protocol based on such statements, anyway.

Thanks Connie. The tech was definitely relaying what the vet said when she said diet was the cause. It is possible that she (Tech) was giving her own thoughts when she specifically said it was the only possible cause. Any road, I hope my poor pup isn't suffering or feeling ill - she is acting OK, luckily, but she's pretty stoic.

UPDATE

Had an abdominal x-ray done last week. Results = no bladder stones
Also we did a proper bladder culture where they took the pee out with a needle and sent to a lab. Results came in today, no growth (no bacteria/infection).

Hm? pH of 9, struvite crystals, normal?

She is also completely asymptomatic, but the boys keep sniffing her nether regions. So, I guess I will just leave her be for now and have another urinalysis done in a few months..?