So I have been working on clicker/marker training and have had an issue. My girlfriend does not believe there to be a benefit in clicker training and thinks the dogs were fine being trained as they were, with luring the dog solely with treats and correction when necessary. While both of these are integral parts in the training process, how do I convince her that the learning phase is best done with clicker training. She thinks the clicker and/or marker of "yes" is annoying and ineffective. I however 100% disagree and this is causing issue. How do I convince her that clicker training is beneficial to our dogs. One of the issues she has is that when I was charging the clicker, and since we have three dogs, she thinks the dogs don't get that when they hear the clicker that means treat, since one of the dogs may get the clicker and the treat and the other may not. I tried explaining to her that the dogs know when I am working with them and not the other, but she doesn't agree. I also explain that they associate the clicker to the food and the food needs to come quickly after the click, so I can click once and give all three treats and they will associate the click with the treat.

My question is, how do I get her to see that using a clicker to train more complex commands is better than luring alone? How do I explain that clicker training is the best for our dogs? I think one of the problems is that we took an obedience class through the city and while the trainer is respected in therapy dog work, she mainly uses correction in training the dog, while allowing the trainer to use treats to reward. I believe this is not the best method of training as it should be fun for the dog and they should not be corrected for something they do not understand to do. I don't know how to get through to her that this is best for the dogs, I refer her to the books I have read and to this site.

I appreciate any responses.

Thank you much!
Keith

Just one of many plus points (a big one):

There is a huge (HUGE) advantage to marker training, even if you did not use the shaping and linking techniques (also HUGE): timing.

There is no possible way for anyone to reward in the instant fashion by which the marker can be given. It is not possible to "take a snapshot of the precise moment of wanted behavior" by fumbling out a reward, even if you wanted to use the reward as a bribe (by keeping it out and visible). What happens is that you reward the second after the desired behavior, perhaps when the dog is moving towards the displayed reward, perhaps when the dog has started barking or doing other unwanted behavior.

The marker (once it's loaded) tells the dog exactly the split second of the behavior that will be rewarded.

The marker says "RIGHT! Reward on the way!"

As for the multiple dog issue, that is very simply tested (as to whether the marker is properly loaded).

Take each dog separately away from the others. Mark and see if the dog looks for the reward. If he does, the marker is loaded.

Have you pointed to this page? http://leerburg.com/markers.htm
QUOTE: Through repetition the dog learns that every time he hears the positive Marker he gets a reward. Every time he hears the negative Marker he does not get a reward and he has to repeat the behavior or exercise. ... Dogs that are trained with markers become problem solvers. They have learned (through the concept of negative reinforcement) that when one behavior doesn't work they need to try something else and if that doesn't work they just keep trying because if they try long enough they have a good chance of figuring out what you want and getting a high value reward. ... The system allows trainers to reinforce correct behavior with "pin point accuracy" from a distance. It also allows dogs to make mistakes and then learn from their mistakes. The beauty of the system is that it also allows us to pin point the exact moment a dog makes a mistake, without correcting the dog in the process.

I would absolutely ask that your friend read it and check out the video on it.

My opinion is that there is no area of training that is not vastly improved by using marker techniques.

I've been training dogs for almost 15 years, though only my own and not professionally. Still, I've seen friends who DO train professionally change their methods and attitudes as newer and better information became available. I've followed along with them, and so have some experience with several different methods just with my own dogs. In my experience, nothing beats marker training for clarity and communication. Dogs LOVE being a partner and participant in their own training. It makes the ease and quality of the training SO much better.

I've had unenthusiastic dogs working to avoid corrections and get a little praise; I've had slightly more enthusiastic dogs get through pet-training adequately for luring and food rewards. I've had out of control dogs using food and positive-only (no corrections) methods.

Fortunately we now have access to balanced training methods. Marker training has changed the standards by being far superior to any other method. The mediocre performances by pre-marker-training dogs are outdated and no longer good enough. We know better now. It doesn't make sense not to take advantage of these new, better and scientifically proven methods. There is no better way to communicate our desires to our dogs in such a clear way that is so readily understood.

Think of it like this: Remember the old car-phones? Now that we have Blackberries...why would we go back to that....right?

You can't make her believe in something she doesn't want to believe in.

Think of it this way. You want HER to believe in YOUR way and she wants YOU to believe in HER (or just not yours ) way.

You both are trying to do the same thing to each other.

 Quote: Mike Hawker

You can't make her believe in something she doesn't want to believe in.

Think of it this way. You want HER to believe in YOUR way and she wants YOU to believe in HER (or just not yours ) way.

You both are trying to do the same thing to each other.

'Zackly. Stop talking about it and watch one of these with her:

http://leerburg.com/220.htm

http://leerburg.com/219.htm

I have a new trainer who doesn't believe in marker/clicker training and so does the rest of his group. I am the only one and I'll stick with this trainer and t am always implementing my marker training. Just this week I showed an excellent heeling with my male and they were all in awe how on earth I trained him. These are people competing at FCI world championship (IPO). Maybe they give it try but honestly I doubt it. Some people you can never convince especially when they are successful with their training methods.
I started out with clicker training but the clicker got in my way far too often (dumbbell hold exercise for instance or in daily life clicker not available). I still do both depending on what I am working on. Just the other day I showed a friend how to marker train (she used clicker and is now doing both).
As Connie points out, don't convince her, train your way and maybe she picks it up.

 Quote: Rachel Schumacher

Just this week I showed an excellent heeling with my male and they were all in awe how on earth I trained him.

The very best way to convince someone

 Quote: Rachel Schumacher

I started out with clicker training but the clicker got in my way far too often (dumbbell hold exercise for instance or in daily life clicker not available).

I loaded the clicker AND the word 'yes' for this reason exactly. I like the clicker for it's clarity in training a new behavior because it is so precise and the sound is so unmistakable to the dog. Once the behavior is established though, I can use 'yes' to the same effect.

 Quote: Rachel Schumacher

I have a new trainer who doesn't believe in marker/clicker training and so does the rest of his group. I am the only one and I'll stick with this trainer and t am always implementing my marker training. Just this week I showed an excellent heeling with my male and they were all in awe how on earth I trained him. These are people competing at FCI world championship (IPO).

When the ones who make it to the podium are all marker trainers, their eyes will open wide, and so will their minds.

@Connie: I work with both, clicker and marker. It took no time to charge the clicker and the marker (yes). BTW ditto the cats with the clicker. The cats were amazing when I tought them the target stick

 Quote: Mike Hawker

You can't make her believe in something she doesn't want to believe in.

Or doesn't work for her. I am a HUGE proponent of marker training but training is about communicating and I am sure there is a small percentage of people that have found an alternative method which works better for them.

I am in 100% agreement with what everyone has mentioned as the positives and the method is even backed up by science. But if she doesn't understand it or the method she was using in the class is more effective for her and she is having good results, (as long as it is not abusive) I think you may have to agree to disagree.

This however leaves you with the question of who trains the dogs? I'm sure they can probably work with both methods but I don't think that is very efficient........ That could be me though, I prefer only one person do the training and then work to generalize the dog to following the same commands from any other family members as needed.