First off... Before anyone jumps at me thinking i'm doing something cruel... I have a 22 mos old female GSD that tips the scales at 60lbs on a good day. She is incredibly athletic.. The Vet College couldn't get over in how good of shape she was, and, how well muscled she was.

The running joke now is that about three weeks ago that Heidi was sent in to be "fixed" and and came back "broken".

What that means is that while she was in being spayed, I asked the vet to shoot a quick image of her hips and elbows... Really, just for the fun of it. I wanted to know how they looked, so, I could tell me breeder that she had another clear dog.

The vet called me and asked me why I wanted the radiographs... What was she doing that I wanted the xrays for???? My response? "She's working on her RCMP validation for SAR, she's also working on joining our Task Force for HUSAR (we're now probationary members), and, she's a recreational narcotics dog.

(She seems to have the "switch"... She'll literally go from playing fetch with my two and five year old nieces and nephews... Dropping the ball at their feet and doing the "border collie thing" of looking at the ball, looking at them, and, backing up... If they don't get the hint... She'll pickup the ball and drop it -on- their feet. I can go from that... To a flat out rocking my truck back and forth barking when she knows we're on our training grounds, or, somewhere where we're about to train.)

If she does not train for several days... She is beyond being hellish to live with.

Apparantly that wasn't the answer he was looking for. He was looking for more along the lines of lameness, bunny hoping, etc. None of which she does.

Turns out that one hip is showing signs of osteoarthritis, the second hip couldn't be extended for a proper image because its so far out, and, both of her elbows are also showing signs of osteoarthritis.

Needless to say I was shocked. As far as I was concerned, I'd done everything properly for puppy raising... Good bloodlines, I've kept her from jumping as much as I could... Low risk exercise, lots of swimming until she was old enough to join me on runs, kongs only for training purposes.. Etc.

I took advantage of a Vet College a couple of hours from our place... And went for an Ortho referral. She's definately not surgical for her hips because she's not exhibiting any outward symptoms in her mobility. Her elbows are possibly surgical to remove the "spurs", but, for as many vets that would cut, there's as many that wouldn't. After showing off her gait they thought they might be able to pick something up in maybe 2 of the literally 20 passes we made. They also noted that she was very stoic... If anything she was more annoyed at being extensively manipulated, then she was showing pain.

Both the vet, vet college, and my cousin whose a vet have said that they've known of dogs that have radiographed with horrible hips, and, never shown an issue.

But, these were all pet homes... And I think there's a big difference between a working dog and a pet...

Our course of action with her now is;

1./ Balanced Omega fatty acids
2./ Glucosamine
3./ Cartrophen injections (course of 1x week for 4
weeks, then boosters at every 8-9 mos)

She's had no problems with the fatty acids... However the glucosamine tablets seem to be giving her some stomach issues.

Anyway, all this to inquire what other people have found to be their experiences with Hips/elbow dysplasia? All of the vets have suggested that we keep training her as before, that there's no reason to back out of training and start a new dog. The breeder has also said that as well. There's every chance that she'll make it to an older age before she shows symptoms.

This is absolutely the worst time for this to come out... She recently validated for narcotics, is being held up for tracking validation by my requiring SAR courses, and could validate in the next year for HUSAR.

(Breeder has offered me pick of litter/pick of puppy for a replacement when I'm ready. I'm far from being ready for a puppy right now. The breeder has also indicated that the puppy would come with a revised warranty... That prelims on the hips would have to be done at 6 mos, and, if there were issues she'd replace that puppy before I invested as much time in it as Heidi has)

Hips/elbows are a fairly common occurance.. Just wondering what other experiences have been? Do "catastrophic" events happen that would mean that I should look at getting a second dog sooner then later? Or are declines gradual meaning I have time to get her settled in working, and, then start a new puppy when I'm in a better place for it.


Thanks!

Paul and Heidi.

QUOTE: Our course of action with her now is;

1./ Balanced Omega fatty acids
2./ Glucosamine
3./ Cartrophen injections (course of 1x week for 4
weeks, then boosters at every 8-9 mos)
END QUOTE

A tiny (almost off-topic) part of your post. but probably worth addressing: Any modern dog diet is overabundant in Omega 6s. You don't want to add "balanced" EFAs because that leaves the present imbalance between 6s and 3s unchanged (or even worse). What you want is to add long-chain 3s (marine sources) and the E to protect the PUFAs during digestion/processing. So-called balanced 3-6 or 3-6-9 oils do nothing positive for the usual 6-rich diet, because what is needed is to bring closer together the extreme difference between ingested 6s and ingested long-chain 3s. Virtually no dog on any modern diet needs added 6s.

In what form is the glucosamine that appear to give GI problems?



And back to the main post:

To clarify: Both elbows and hips show OA changes, and one only hip appears to be dysplastic?

Hi Connie;

Actually, no, this is exactly on topic... And something I should have addressed.. The vet's have all specified a "Good Quality" Omega 3 and Glucosamine.. Yet, haven't really said what defines "good", but, will talk at great lengths about it being unregulated.
------------------------------------------
Question 1;

I was giving her a Glucosamine/Chonodroitin Sulfate pill (500/400mg) which we purchased from Costco. (Sams Club in the us??)

I then switched to a product recommended at our local dog food supplier... Its "Holistic Blend" Glucosamine HCL Complex liquid formula. It was a lot easier, as it was liquid form and I just put it over her food. That started the issues...

When I gave her a calming period (no glucosamine) and then started her back on the pill format, that even started issues.

As for fish oils... Now that I look at the bottle.. I doubt it is balanced... We're giving her Aller G3 capsules, which is "an omega 3 fatty acid supplement for dogs". She's getting a capsule with both feedings each day.

When we speak of diet... She has a lot of food allergies, and, we've had her on "California Natural" with excellent luck. Only down thing is that our service dogs are sponsored by Eukanuba.. So I get free food if I feed Euk,

----------------

Question 2

On radiographs, both elbows are showing subtle signs of OA, however they have "Spurs" on the bone. (Probably not the right term). They both seem to show some signs of pain under manipulation. The Ortho Vet was actually more concerned about the elbows then the hip because of the fact it was already showing pain.

The right rear hip radiographed of obvious hip dysplasia with signs of OA already setting in. The left rear hip showed subtle signs of changes. Neither hip could be manipulated to show pain, although the right hip had decreased range of motion.

Thanks!

P.

 Quote: n. paul service

------------------------------------------
Question 1;

I was giving her a Glucosamine/Chonodroitin Sulfate pill (500/400mg) which we purchased from Costco. (Sams Club in the us??)

I then switched to a product recommended at our local dog food supplier... Its "Holistic Blend" Glucosamine HCL Complex liquid formula. It was a lot easier, as it was liquid form and I just put it over her food. That started the issues...

When I gave her a calming period (no glucosamine) and then started her back on the pill format, that even started issues.

As for fish oils... Now that I look at the bottle.. I doubt it is balanced... We're giving her Aller G3 capsules, which is "an omega 3 fatty acid supplement for dogs". She's getting a capsule with both feedings each day.

When we speak of diet... She has a lot of food allergies, and, we've had her on "California Natural" with excellent luck. Only down thing is that our service dogs are sponsored by Eukanuba.. So I get free food if I feed Euk,

----------------

California Natural is a pretty good food, IMO. Eukanuba is not. JMO.

Because Aller G3 capsules do not name the fish, I don't buy it. But it is indeed marine-source (good), and it's not a "balanced 3-6" supplement (which you don't want). Two capsules a day is an appropriate therapeutic dose for a 20- to 30-pound dog.

Actual food allergies in dogs are uncommon (as opposed to inhalant/environmental), but that's definitely fodder for a different thread. And anyway, you have decided against a food that could easily cause short- and long-term problems from heavy grain inclusion, so good!

What were/are the glucosamine GI issues? Diarrhea? Vomiting?

 Quote: n. paul service

Question 2

On radiographs, both elbows are showing subtle signs of OA, however they have "Spurs" on the bone. (Probably not the right term). They both seem to show some signs of pain under manipulation. The Ortho Vet was actually more concerned about the elbows then the hip because of the fact it was already showing pain.

The right rear hip radiographed of obvious hip dysplasia with signs of OA already setting in. The left rear hip showed subtle signs of changes. Neither hip could be manipulated to show pain, although the right hip had decreased range of motion.

Thanks!

P.

Did you see the x-rays? Have you taken them for a second opinion about removing the bone spurs?

I went to my existing vet, and, then went to the Atlantic Vet College. (The teaching hospital in our region)

The Ortho said that where she's showing no signs when she's walking, exercising, that they wouldn't cut her. She also said that there were vets in the College who would..

It comes down to what I wanted to do.... But, where she's so active I wouldn't want to take the risk of complications.

About 10-15 years ago... I was a big fan of Euk and Iams. Now I am not. But, they sponsor the team... So, its a source of free food.

She seems to have excellant results off of the California Natural. Although the only thing I can see is that they don't have a performance food. After speaking with California Natural Reps' on the phone, I returned her to puppy formula for the energy levels.

All i know is that if shes given certain foods/biscuits.. Within 10-15 shes attacking her toes and "corn cobbing" her legs.

The glucosamine issues are an extremely soft stool. The liquid form gave her the all out runs. No vomitting.

P.

About 10-15 years ago... I was a big fan of Euk and Iams. Now I am not. But, they sponsor the team... So, its a source of free food.

She seems to have excellant results off of the California Natural. Although the only thing I can see is that they don't have a performance food. After speaking with California Natural Reps' on the phone, I returned her to puppy formula for the energy levels.

All i know is that if shes given certain foods/biscuits.. Within 10-15 shes attacking her toes and "corn cobbing" her legs.

The glucosamine issues are an extremely soft stool. The liquid form gave her the all out runs. No vomitting.

P.