Rhonda Parkin wrote 02/26/2010 01:55 PM Shaping question #266736 - 02/26/2010 01:55 PM
Rhonda Parkin Webboard User Reg: 12-15-2007 Posts: 143 Loc: New Zealand, Auckland Offline	I am wanting to teach Max to fetch properly, so we're starting at the beginning. I'll start with teaching him to give me an object, and I wanted to use shaping to do it. However I don't know what to do if he does something I really don't want with the object. I am 95% sure that whatever I use he's going to find trying to chew and destroy it a bigger reward than any food I can give him. Especially if it takes a while for him to do something to get treated for. So when he does that do I just stop the training? Or do I tell him no in my 'that's not quite it' tone and keep trying? What if he continues to do the opposite of what I want?
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Connie Sutherland wrote 02/26/2010 02:24 PM Re: Shaping question [Re: Rhonda Parkin ] #266740 - 02/26/2010 02:24 PM
Connie Sutherland Moderator Reg: 07-13-2005 Posts: 31571 Loc: North-Central coast of California Offline	Quote: Rhonda Parkin I am wanting to teach Max to fetch properly, so we're starting at the beginning. I'll start with teaching him to give me an object, and I wanted to use shaping to do it. However I don't know what to do if he does something I really don't want with the object. I am 95% sure that whatever I use he's going to find trying to chew and destroy it a bigger reward than any food I can give him. Especially if it takes a while for him to do something to get treated for. So when he does that do I just stop the training? Or do I tell him no in my 'that's not quite it' tone and keep trying? What if he continues to do the opposite of what I want? Have you taught the dog other (shorter, simpler) stuff using markers? If you have, then Jessica's great post here http://leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=238369 really lines up the links in the back-chain.
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Connie Sutherland wrote 02/26/2010 02:29 PM Re: Shaping question [Re: Connie Sutherland ] #266741 - 02/26/2010 02:29 PM
Connie Sutherland Moderator Reg: 07-13-2005 Posts: 31571 Loc: North-Central coast of California Offline	Oh, and I'd probably use an item he doesn't care about chewing/killing to start with, with your dog. And the "give" is the first step, in back-chaining.* You're talking about playing fetch, right? When I was teaching "fetch" to very low-drive dogs (as I was describing in that thread), I wanted to start with an item they already loved to get their interest up. But if they had been chewer/killers-of-toys, I'd probably have used something they didn't particularly want to chew/kill. I know that others here have shaped both fetch and formal retrieves, so you will get more help. *(See page one of that URL I posted.) Edited by Connie Sutherland (02/26/2010 02:34 PM) Edit reason: add asterisk
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Melissa Thom wrote 02/26/2010 02:31 PM Re: Shaping question [Re: Rhonda Parkin ] #266742 - 02/26/2010 02:31 PM
Melissa Thom Webboard User Reg: 12-04-2007 Posts: 2781 Loc: Upper Left hand corner, USA Offline	You teach the finish before the retrieve. That way you never give the opportunity for the dog to do something else with the object and it creates the idea in the dog that if something is in his mouth he needs to bring it to you. I outlined this in another post months ago but here's how I started. I sit in a chair, take the object which is either a bumper or a rope ball, call the dog, put the dog into a sit, offer the object to the dog, the dog puts object in it's mouth but I do not take my hand off of it. I then offer a high to moderate value treat with the command "Thank you." When the dog lets go I give a YES! and a high value treat. Then offer the object again. Repeat. Eventually remove your hand from the object, and when you say Thank you the dog should start spitting the object out into your hand when your hand is offered. When the dog is putting the object in your hand for the "Thank You" start dropping the object on the floor, then a few feet away, then with a toss.
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Connie Sutherland wrote 02/26/2010 02:37 PM Re: Shaping question [Re: Melissa Thom ] #266743 - 02/26/2010 02:37 PM
Connie Sutherland Moderator Reg: 07-13-2005 Posts: 31571 Loc: North-Central coast of California Offline	Quote: melissa thom You teach the finish before the retrieve. That way you never give the opportunity for the dog to do something else with the object and it creates the idea in the dog that if something is in his mouth he needs to bring it to you. I outlined this in another post months ago but here's how I started. I sit in a chair, take the object which is either a bumper or a rope ball, call the dog, put the dog into a sit, offer the object to the dog, the dog puts object in it's mouth but I do not take my hand off of it. I then offer a high to moderate value treat with the command "Thank you." When the dog lets go I give a YES! and a high value treat. Then offer the object again. Repeat. Eventually remove your hand from the object, and when you say Thank you the dog should start spitting the object out into your hand when your hand is offered. When the dog is putting the object in your hand for the "Thank You" start dropping the object on the floor, then a few feet away, then with a toss. Melissa, did you (or would you) choose a lower-value item to facilitate the release? I had not thought about this before with a chewy guy, but it sounds like a good plan.
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Melissa Thom wrote 02/26/2010 02:46 PM Re: Shaping question [Re: Connie Sutherland ] #266748 - 02/26/2010 02:46 PM
Melissa Thom Webboard User Reg: 12-04-2007 Posts: 2781 Loc: Upper Left hand corner, USA Offline	Quote: Connie Sutherland Melissa, did you (or would you) choose a lower-value item to facilitate the release? I had not thought about this before with a chewy guy, but it sounds like a good plan. That's why you do the finish before the retrieve. It changes the game for the dog to make them retrieve for you instead of themselves. The reward depends on the dog. With my lab I could present her with a rock (I used dry dog food) and she'd let go of the bumper in hopes she could eat the rock. With my papillons I had to use a large bully ring to even get them to put their mouths on what I was offering and my finest cheddar to get them to let go. I never give them the opportunity to chew on what I'm offering by keeping them in the sit and not letting go until they get the idea that when I say thank you that means they let go of the object.
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Rhonda Parkin wrote 02/26/2010 02:54 PM Re: Shaping question [Re: Connie Sutherland ] #266750 - 02/26/2010 02:54 PM
Rhonda Parkin Webboard User Reg: 12-15-2007 Posts: 143 Loc: New Zealand, Auckland Offline	That sounds like a great way to do it with Max, thanks Melissa. Connie I have taught Max other things with markers, all of the formal stuff (read taught on purpose) has been trained that way. Unfortunately I haven't found anything that Max didn't at least try to chew and destroy. If he can get it in his mouth that's what he's going to do with it. Actually the one thing I can think of that he doesn't destroy is his big rubber puzzle treat ball. He will chew it but physically can't destroy it because of the thickness of the rubber and the size of it. Maybe we can try with that, but if he starts to chew it do we stop the training?
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Connie Sutherland wrote 02/26/2010 03:02 PM Re: Shaping question [Re: Rhonda Parkin ] #266751 - 02/26/2010 03:02 PM
Connie Sutherland Moderator Reg: 07-13-2005 Posts: 31571 Loc: North-Central coast of California Offline	Quote: Rhonda Parkin .... Maybe we can try with that, but if he starts to chew it do we stop the training?  Quote: Melissa Thom I never give them the opportunity to chew on what I'm offering by keeping them in the sit and not letting go until they get the idea that when I say thank you that means they let go of the object.
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