I just watched this 6 part video on youtube of a British show that attempted to show the inherit flaws of Breeding practices, specifically show breeding. I found their arguments sound, but i know little to nothing about breeding dogs. Anyways i thought it was worth sharing and i would be interested to hear peoples thoughts on the subject.

Part 1 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3O0l0f50AAk&feature=fvw

Part 2 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZNVewvFm4M&feature=related

Part 3 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnN4u7OrYdI&feature=related

part 4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXYvukCMQYk&feature=related

part 5 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQSR-1yAMXo&feature=related

part 6 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTjQuQo8Xds&feature=related

Let's see we've had this as a topic a few times... Pedigree dogs exposed came out in late 08' in the UK and I recently saw it being aired on BBC America. The wikipedia article covers alot of this fairly well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedigree_Dogs_Exposed

I'm mainly interested in the after effects of this since the topic of purebred dog husbandry is such a highly controversial topic.

I found it interesting that the Kennel club chose to amend it's breed standards (although it doesn't mean that will follow them) to put more stress on less extreme dogs like in the case of the peke and bull dog. It also put a really public face on their health care scheme for dogs and certifying breed and putting restrictions on tight linebreeding (parent/offspring litters, brother/sister etc no longer being registerable). The breed clubs are naturally not liking the being told what to do factor.

As far as my opinion on the matter in some cases I think the kennel club took a reasonable reaction in taking a hard look at their practices. Some breeds were and are being bred to extremes, closed registries combined with linebreeding have caused issues, and the phrasing of some of the standards encouraged breeders to reach for the word of the standard without consideration to the results of reaching for crazy extremes. On the other hand I think this has given fuel to the ARA nutjobs who seek to shut down breeders and has put a bubble around the future of purebred dog standards aligning but time will tell on the british influence.

Things that have not been done yet that I wish would happen is that in order to have a Ch in front of a name that the dog must be tested clear of an appropriate list of genetic defects. I can't tell you how much I wish for in AKC professional handlers would be barred from Show like in UKC, and I wish that the point system would be abolished. Alas, I imagine I will be waiting forever on these wishes in the USA because too much money is in this game for people to spend 30K plus to title a dog vs existing champions out for points. I wish that there are true acceptable standards for care of dogs (the minimums by akc are very minimum).
Now why do I wish this? Because I see dogs paired every week that are bred based upon the number of champions and kennel names in their pedigree rather than temperament, health, and confirmation qualities. I know breeders who send puppies away at 6 months old to not see them again until they are "championed out" by professional handlers usually in 3-4 different venues, and I've known people to not report health issues because the dog has a Ch in front of their name and "not all the puppies will have that problem." I have also seen resistance with long time breeders to submitting dna for genetic test profiles because it might "raise costs in the long run."

To bring it back round to the movie, yeah the topic might be uncomfortable but maybe on some of this stuff they have a point. Maybe a swift kick in the butt about the matter will help, maybe I'm dreaming though.

This looks like a clear case of animal cruelty, at least to somebody who is entirely unacquainted with breeding.

As long as it is not illegal for a person to do something to somebody(or something in this case) there is always going to be an opinion that it is entirely within this person's right to act in such a way. Then it becomes purely a matter of politics and instead of dealing with the matter as a whole narrow interest groups fight over particular cases. In this case the breeders will keep on breeding till either there is a legislative change or an overwhelming political majority disapproving of the practices.

Yep. I think I am going to post this one Here we go.

This video has been posted before, but to repeat: if you post something like this you should also post a disclaimer stating it contains disturbing images that some people might not want to see or be able to handle watching.

It is a worthwhile topic, but let's be mindful of those who are more sensitive of graphic scenes. Thanks!

 Quote: melissa thom

I can't tell you how much I wish for in AKC professional handlers would be barred from Show like in UKC, and I wish that the point system would be abolished.

Melissa,
I really love hearing your opinion on subjects like this, as you share many of the same views on breeding as working dog folk generally do (putting health and temperament test results head and shoulders over looks, with an eye far into the future of the breed), while also participating in conformation (at least you used to) and breeding of a "companion" breed. Seems to me like you operate in a very realistic middle ground.

That said, and purely out of curiosity, I'm interested in your above statement on professional handlers. I'm not involved in conformation showing, and know only the basics behind what it takes to successfully campaign a big champion (I have no allegiance to any particular method) - doesn't sound like a great life for the dog, but what are your ethical issues with hiring a pro to travel with and run a dog around a ring?

And Happy Birthday!!

~Natalya

 Quote: Angela Burrell

This video has been posted before, but to repeat: if you post something like this you should also post a disclaimer stating it contains disturbing images that some people might not want to see or be able to handle watching.

It is a worthwhile topic, but let's be mindful of those who are more sensitive of graphic scenes. Thanks!

Thanks for everybody's insight on the subject, sorry if this was a re-post, it was new to me and i apologize I should have mentioned that there are disturbing images in it.

I have a working line dobe and it made me curious. Because they mentioned the large difference in medical problems between the show line and the working line GSDs. I was wondering if the same is true for most working line dog breeds.

 Quote: natalya zahn

 Quote: melissa thom

I can't tell you how much I wish for in AKC professional handlers would be barred from Show like in UKC, and I wish that the point system would be abolished.

Melissa,
I really love hearing your opinion on subjects like this, as you share many of the same views on breeding as working dog folk generally do (putting health and temperament test results head and shoulders over looks, with an eye far into the future of the breed), while also participating in conformation (at least you used to) and breeding of a "companion" breed. Seems to me like you operate in a very realistic middle ground.

I'm no longer am doing confirmation for personal reasons related to my views that no dog breed to my knowledge ever came to be because of the show ring and I see no value to be gained as akc confirmation is no longer the comparison of breeding stock but an old boy's club used to pander to people's egos and not about the health and welfare of dogs. I hold it against no one if they choose to compete with their own dog on their time on the weekend, that is their choice but I will never sell a puppy to be a "show dog" but if someone wants to own a dog and show I'm fine with that. I hope that makes sense.

My disdain of career show dogs came up after hearing the story of a very prominently used sire named Ace. Ace was born in japan to a breeder and purchased originally by a group of four co owners. He was brought to this country as a 3 month old dog and was set on the path of a show dog with a professional handler. He was never allowed to learn to interact outside of show ring behavior, never allowed to learn sit, or how to walk on a normal lead or wear a normal collar. He was kept in a tiny run alone to prevent someone from tangling his hair. He was championed out in three venues being passed from professional handler to professional handler and becoming one of the top rated dogs in his breed. At the age of three he was turned out to one of his co owners kennels where he lived four years in a rabbit hutch as a breeding machine until his co owners no longer needed his bloodline and began selling their co ownerships to each other until the last two got into an argument and they decided Ace would be sold. They got an offer and Ace was sold to a puppymiller who used him to produce hundreds of "champion sired " dogs until she no longer could make money on him (after all everyone had one of his pups who wanted one) and Ace was sold again as a SOM to what is his current home still producing puppies. Last I heard the tally this dog has produced 1200 puppies, and his old co owners are starting to disclose that there were consistent genetic health problems with some of the puppies he produced in the early years.

In my eyes, this is so wrong but greed clouded the judgment of people as is human nature. If the dog had health clearances to become a champion it'd be a small step, if professional handlers and the point system were abolished it would lessen the idea of doggie superstars of the breed, and if there were a little less money being passed around on a single animal maybe someone might care a little more about preserving the breed and the welfare of the dog over protecting their investment.

 Quote: melissa thom

 Quote: natalya zahn

 Quote: melissa thom

I can't tell you how much I wish for in AKC professional handlers would be barred from Show like in UKC, and I wish that the point system would be abolished.

Melissa,
I really love hearing your opinion on subjects like this, as you share many of the same views on breeding as working dog folk generally do (putting health and temperament test results head and shoulders over looks, with an eye far into the future of the breed), while also participating in conformation (at least you used to) and breeding of a "companion" breed. Seems to me like you operate in a very realistic middle ground.

I'm no longer am doing confirmation for personal reasons related to my views that no dog breed to my knowledge ever came to be because of the show ring and I see no value to be gained as akc confirmation is no longer the comparison of breeding stock but an old boy's club used to pander to people's egos and not about the health and welfare of dogs. I hold it against no one if they choose to compete with their own dog on their time on the weekend, that is their choice but I will never sell a puppy to be a "show dog" but if someone wants to own a dog and show I'm fine with that. I hope that makes sense.

My disdain of career show dogs came up after hearing the story of a very prominently used sire named Ace. Ace was born in japan to a breeder and purchased originally by a group of four co owners. He was brought to this country as a 3 month old dog and was set on the path of a show dog with a professional handler. He was never allowed to learn to interact outside of show ring behavior, never allowed to learn sit, or how to walk on a normal lead or wear a normal collar. He was kept in a tiny run alone to prevent someone from tangling his hair. He was championed out in three venues being passed from professional handler to professional handler and becoming one of the top rated dogs in his breed. At the age of three he was turned out to one of his co owners kennels where he lived four years in a rabbit hutch as a breeding machine until his co owners no longer needed his bloodline and began selling their co ownerships to each other until the last two got into an argument and they decided Ace would be sold. They got an offer and Ace was sold to a puppymiller who used him to produce hundreds of "champion sired " dogs until she no longer could make money on him (after all everyone had one of his pups who wanted one) and Ace was sold again as a SOM to what is his current home still producing puppies. Last I heard the tally this dog has produced 1200 puppies, and his old co owners are starting to disclose that there were consistent genetic health problems with some of the puppies he produced in the early years.

In my eyes, this is so wrong but greed clouded the judgment of people as is human nature. If the dog had health clearances to become a champion it'd be a small step, if professional handlers and the point system were abolished it would lessen the idea of doggie superstars of the breed, and if there were a little less money being passed around on a single animal maybe someone might care a little more about preserving the breed and the welfare of the dog over protecting their investment.

I completely agree with you both, Natalya and Melissa. Very, very well said of both of you.
This thread has really been an eye opener. I am just a pet owner that knows nothing about showing dogs.
I think what an intelligent and thoughtful, and most refreshing
post from the both of you.
Thanks for your insight!