Here are three professionals who do snake avoidance training here where we have alot of snakes in Az. I'm sure any of them would be happy to consult with you over the phone.

Terry Chandler rugerheim@zianet.com
Bob at Kninebirdogs 520-709-1019
Bill Gibbons at http://www.magmabirddogs.com/snakebreaking.html

Thanks Rob, I will give the snake avoidance people a call and see if I can get some professional advice. I certainly don't want to do this wrong the first time, especially since I'll be working with my own dogs who really need to have solid porcupine avoidance skills.

As Rob stated, there are a lot of people here that do snake avoidance training. I personally have not done it with my dogs, but my neighbor did it with his boxers and relayed this from his experience:

They put electronic collars on the dogs on their highest setting. They then walk them on leash to a pit filled with rattle snakes enclosed with wire fencing. As the dogs approached, the "trainer" "shocked" the dog at the highest setting and then stopped. If the dog continued to go up to the pit it would continue to get shocked until the dog avoided the pit all together.

I would not call this training, but rather torture. Also, it didn't seem to work because two weeks later one of his dogs went after a western diamondback and he got bit. However, in a life or death situation of snake bites, it seems maybe its better to have a really bad experience of a high level "shock" than to be bit and possibly killed by a snake bite. I have heard of other places in AZ doing snake training the same way, so I am assuming that they will refer you to the same techniques while substituting snakes with porcupines.. My neighbor used a company in NE Phoenix. This company has had problems with A/C breaking while kenneling dogs, but that is another story.

 Quote: keith kaplan

As Rob stated, there are a lot of people here that do snake avoidance training. I personally have not done it with my dogs, but my neighbor did it with his boxers and relayed this from his experience:

They put electronic collars on the dogs on their highest setting. They then walk them on leash to a pit filled with rattle snakes enclosed with wire fencing. As the dogs approached, the "trainer" "shocked" the dog at the highest setting and then stopped. If the dog continued to go up to the pit it would continue to get shocked until the dog avoided the pit all together.

I would not call this training, but rather torture. Also, it didn't seem to work because two weeks later one of his dogs went after a western diamondback and he got bit. However, in a life or death situation of snake bites, it seems maybe its better to have a really bad experience of a high level "shock" than to be bit and possibly killed by a snake bite. I have heard of other places in AZ doing snake training the same way, so I am assuming that they will refer you to the same techniques while substituting snakes with porcupines.. My neighbor used a company in NE Phoenix. This company has had problems with A/C breaking while kenneling dogs, but that is another story.

Hi Keith!! I do not have personal experience with the three references I provided, but I am personally aware that these are three trainers at the top of the profession. Bill Gibbons has won national field trial events with his dogs and is a training authority referenced in numerous training manuals. Arlette Hennessy (kninbirddog) and Terry Chandler are also nationally respected breeder/trainers. I honestly don't know how much these folks work with non-birddog breeds because they are very busy in their thriving businesses training birddogs. People come back to them time and again. These are very well respected folks in the field and I would be VERY comfortable taking my dogs to any of them. I doubt if you are suggesting it was one of these folks who "tortured" a dog and trained it ineffectively.

Anyway, all I'm suggesting is a 3000 mile phone call. Kiersten just wants more information, that's all, so she can train her dogs to leave porcupines alone.

Based on what I've read and the two people I've talked to who have successfully trained porcupine aversion, the rattlesnake in a pit set-up sounds like very poor, and perhaps even cruel, training. From what I've read and heard on reputable trainers, they have de-fanged snakes they are able to handle, and place in an appropriate area. They then bring the dog in so he can experience the scent, sound, and smell of a rattlesnake. Yes, they shock the dog upon investigating the snake, but it is not an alien setting, but instead a more natural encounter that might happen while out hiking or sniffing around the backyard. A bunch of snakes in a pit means the dog may not see, or even hear them, depending on the situation. Also, the dog may not be able to connect the snake with the shock in the pit scenario. Maybe he'll associate it with the fence, or a strange handler, or something else entirely. The trainers I looked into also proof the dog in different situations (eg. hear the snake but not see it, as would often be the case in the natural environment). Sure, occasionally a dog might run into a bunch of rattlesnakes that are just waking up from hibernation, but a pit full of them? Quite un-natural.
I do not plan to do anything cruel or inhumane to my dogs. That is far from my intention. Rather, I am trying to avoid the stress, injury, and danger associated with a porcupine encounter and my high prey drive dog. I certainly want to do this the right way, and I feel like with the research I've done and advice I've received, I can have two dogs who will not get quilled by a porcupine miles from any veterinary help.
The first hand stories I've heard about porcupine quills migrating to the lungs, embedding in joints, coming out through the eye, and making a dog lame for months are all well worth avoiding. If I was working out west again, I would go through a rattlesnake aversion course too. But I'd certainly research the trainer first.
I don't expect things to go perfectly the first time I try aversion training, but I will do everything possible to make sure this is an overall beneficial experience for the dogs. They are the best hiking and field work companions I've ever had, and it's my responsibility to keep them safe if I bring them into porcupine habitat. This type of training is the best way I've found to do that. I wouldn't do it otherwise.

Rob, I was making no reference to the trainers you listed. I was only stating the experience my neighbor had with snake training. I do know the name of the place he took them, but do not know the trainers name. I was only listing this experience as a warning as to what to look out for and to avoid, making no reference to the methods the trainers you listed employ.

I agree there must be better ways of snake training and proofing than what my neighbor experienced. Again, I was only stating his experience as information so when looking for an avoidance trainer, what to look out for and avoid.

Hopefully you will be able to find a great trainer who will employ better techniques to actually train your dog in an environment similar to that you may experience in the "real" world. Good luck!

 Quote: keith kaplan

Rob, I was making no reference to the trainers you listed. I was only stating the experience my neighbor had with snake training. I do know the name of the place he took them, but do not know the trainers name. I was only listing this experience as a warning as to what to look out for and to avoid, making no reference to the methods the trainers you listed employ.

I agree there must be better ways of snake training and proofing than what my neighbor experienced. Again, I was only stating his experience as information so when looking for an avoidance trainer, what to look out for and avoid.

Hopefully you will be able to find a great trainer who will employ better techniques to actually train your dog in an environment similar to that you may experience in the "real" world. Good luck!

Gotcha. This is definitely an area in which you want to do your homework ahead of time, that's for sure. Your neighbor probably didn't have quite as much information going in as Kiersten is collecting.

Those birddog guys are effective because they have to be. Those dogs are constantly sticking their noses in places and covering so much country that they have to encounter LOTS of snakes when then are in season. Since some of the trial dogs range out 1/2 mile or more, they have to be completely independent in their decision making. I do read about trial dogs that get bitten every so often, but I've never heard of a dog from one of those trainers get bitten (though I'm sure NO training is perfect).

It's a difficult challenge for training, with not much room for error. I still think it's worthwhile because it enables the dogs to continue doing what they love most in life - working at what they were bred to do.

I have to think that the internet and forums like this one will at least raise folks awareness and help in some ways.

Take care.

I took a look at the website you provided. It looks good. I may contact them about doing some snake training for my dogs since they are out in full force right now.

Thanks!

 Quote: Keith Kaplan

I took a look at the website you provided. It looks good. I may contact them about doing some snake training for my dogs since they are out in full force right now.

Thanks!

Welcome and let us know how it turns out!

You won't find a trainer with much more experience and success than Bill Gibbons, I know that (unless maybe you want to travel east and have Ed Frawley train your pups ) Mr. Gibbons travels the country giving workshops and is in the top three or four living authorities in the country in the field. He is renowned for his positive, humane methods with dogs - I guess he's sort of been to training bird dogs what Ed Frawley has been to revolutionizing the training of protection dogs. We are lucky to have Bill in the Phoenix area, I know that!!