situation: 15 month old dog commits to the sleeve with intense power but a leaves the ground a second latter then what normal dogs do. Possible problem from some training done where the tug/bit pillow was trailed and the dog learned to commit when the item was moving away. Hence when the sleeve is presented the dog waits a second then nails it, but the timing is of enough that she hits the elbow and not the center of sleeve. The dog has only had a few days of training. All around the dog is exceptional, just looking for others thoughts on this problem.

Just a couple thoughts...

Long line and TARGET every bite. Don't give the dog a chance to make the decision where it's going to bite. Only allow correct bites. Teach frontal bites before going to the escapes.

On the escapes, also have the helper decrease the angle of his bite-arm...so it's more like a backwards 'L' and once the dog is consistent and reliable on the targeting; begin increasing the angle (gradually bringing the arm closer to the body)...then gradually add the distance and the speed.

Keep the distances short, do slow escapes, and keep the dog on the line and the handler physically directs where the dog is going to bite.

To create this type of consistency and reliability and to break a habit, is going to take some time...so don't expect that after 2 or 3 sessions, you can let the dog go on its own and it will target correctly. You may have to do this for weeks.

Hope this helps.

Chet when a dog consistently hits the elbow its a sign of avoidence. Re-evalutae your training steps and simplify them - make it a lot easier for the dog to grip the correct part of the sleeve.

I saw a Dobe doing this at the last Flinks seminar I went to. Bernhard cut a small bucket, pulled it up the sleeve to cover the elbow. Didn't take long for the dog to figure out where to bite correctly after that. At the nationals I saw sleeve covers that have the plastic sewn into them around the elbow and wrist area for this same purpose. Bernhard says they make a sleeve in Germany where the plastic is hidden from the dog on the inside.

Ed, One of our PSD's has a nasty habit of biting the suit at the hand. Even if he hits the back, arm or legs he goes for the hand as soon as he gets the opportunity. I believe this is avoidance also and has told the handler so. He doesnt believe me but cannot explain why the dog does this. I believe that the dog is going for the hand because it is furthest from the body, a place where I dont think he is comfortable. Is my assumption correct?

Howard

Hand Hunters!!
Ouch!!
For suit work, I have the Left and Right hand protectors that I bought from Ray Allen for a ridiculous amount per ( like $ 139 *per* hand, Ed, you need to carry these! ) unit.
I also *highly* recommend the Hatch Resister RFK300 duty gloves which are fully Kevlar lined and used by Police and Corrections officers for pat downs and frisking suspects. These gloves are very slash and puncture resistant, and while it'd still hurt like H*ll getting bit in them, they'd certainly decrease the damage done, maybe saving the decoy a trip to the ER ( this trick was taught to me by Scott Whigham, thanks man! )
These gloves would also be worth carrying in your catalog there, Ed! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Chet,
Also try alot of bungie work with him. I seen a dog that use to do that and we worked him on the bungie until it stopped and he was squared away after that. He had been taught to early to wait for the bite, like being put at sit until given the word, so he always did it because he would take a minute to evaluate whether or not it was ok. This is a fairly easy problem (from what I have seen) to get them out of. There maybe better advice here, but what worked for us was the bungie and leaving OB out of bitework, until he was where we wanted him. I'm not at all trying to make sligh comments about your decoy, but some of that could be the decoy, we are having that same problem with a dog in our club, and I got him biting in the center after wanting nothing but the ends. I would move the sleeve quicker into position than he could change directions in mid-bite. So when he got a bite he was like damn it I didn't want here, but when he did get it right I gave him a good fight, and of course let him win. This dog liked the fight, so when he beat me and did get an end, I immidiatly slipped it and his handler outed him, no fight and he lost it. He then learned what it took to get the fight and win. I'v seen some where the dog fought because he wanted his sleeve, not really for the fight, so with him when he got an end he didn't get it slipped, he was called off or choked off the sleeve and the game started over, he will in the next few bites get the correct target, then he gets a 3sec fight and slip, he then learned to get it he had to bite the center, or else that round was over, and we gradually encreased the fight time, problem was solved. Just what worked here, but I'm sure you'll get lots of good advice here, Good training Bro.

work your dog on a bungee line and use a left and right arm if possible and target every bite dont allow her to hit the soft spot if the helper can work up a lot of frustration on that bungee targeting should not be a problem (give a lot of praise when she hits the right spot)

Howard,
Its been my experience that dogs that always like to bite at the hands are that way because they have been fed the bite to many times,(the hand being the closes target) The dogs Ive tried to retrain from doing this, I just made sure they always got a good bite and not allowed to even get to the hands. If the dog wants to hesitate about biting because there isnt a good hand bite, well I just incease the pressure and make the fight real so the dog is biting for real, no time to waite for a hand bite.
I havent seen the dog your talking about so I dont know if its avoidence.I asume your talking about police dogs though.I occasionally work a dog that is a very tough dog,several street bites(the pitcures were nasty), this dog will bite anywhere very nicely BUT after the initial bite if given the chance the dog will try and get a rebite on your ankle under the suit. It seems to know what its doing. I wont work that dog with out a long line on it.

thanks for the responses. We have worked out the problem. Seemed that some of the problem was working the dog in prey. Very strange, but when the helper took more of a defensive, and fighting posture the dog really firmed up. She didn't need prey movement from the sleeve. and seemed to give her the bag bit. We let the dog shoot in to the sleeve. This has fixed the problem. Not sure if shooting the sleeve is a term or not, but basically it would be like an escape or courage test w/o the running. the dog comes in, then the helper moves enough not to jam the dog. But the posture of the helper was very much defensive and aggresive. (Fuller in appearance and confrontational). the dog liked this power from the helper and now hits the middle of the sleeve with a full, calm hard bit. Hopefully this stays. thanks again for the info.

-chet