A little confused and quite the training idiot but.. how am I supposed to know whether to protection train if you can't know until 2 years old if the dog has the drive? I'm going to assume (going by genetics, etc) that my boxer will not, and ask what you would suggest then for training to take full advantage of the boxer's protective nature and defensive abilities, even tho she is probably not genetically equipped to go the whole 9 yards? Would bite work or other type training only screw her up or even be of any benefit? Is this also to say that all other dogs that bite trespassers or intruders are fear biting or basically unstable b/c the only reason a dog should bite is if it is trained to bite unless it is an unwanted characteristic that you are just hoping works to your advantage one day?

I ask b/c I have a Boxer and know from the criteria discussed here she will probably not have the genetic components to be a ppd. However, there are lots of dogs out there who are menacing to strangers and who are defensive or protective and who bite people who are not trained. Im not sure if that's something I should want or not. If it is desirable, how do you achieve it and if it's not, is there such thing as a safe yet untrained ppd?

Hi Rachel,

Welcome to the forum. I would recommend you first do some searching and read the numerous previous threads on training a ppd. TONS of information already out there which will probably answer your questions and give you more information than you wanted regarding whether your particular dog has what it takes...

I'm not sure exactly what you mean about having a dog who is not trained to bite, but who does bite and is that something you should want or not...

In my opinion, NO there is no such thing as a safe yet untrained ppd... (Maybe you just mean a protective house dog?)

Again, this is a huge, complex topic and I'd recommend you do some searching. Anything Will Rambeau posts about ppd are the ones to look for.

Again, welcome to the forum!

Rachel, I want to add that I know nothing about ppds and that is why I'm recommending the searches! I should have just said "welcome, I know nothing about this topic, search and the others who do know will chime in."

 Quote: Rachel Ramos

is there such thing as a safe yet untrained ppd?

No.

For answers to your other questions, we'd need a lot more information on your dog to give you an accurate answer.
It'd be well worth your time to look through the PPD threads, you'd likely find answers to your questions there.

@ Barbara, thanks for your hospitality. A Will, yes, I have done this. I have read the entire website and ordered tapes, so when I say idiot, I don't mean TOTAL idiot. Perhaps the question is just more philisophical than technical, I don't know. What Im saying is that from what I HAVE read, Ed states that fight drive is 100% genetic. You can bring it out but you cannot create it. It either exists or doesn't. SO, if you have a dog from questionable heritage (i.e. adopted, rescued, given to you by your aunt, stray, bought at a pet store, whatever), what is the purpose of bite work and building drive and focus and all of the working dog activity if in the end your dog will just posture and never come thru as a ppd?

In other words, could "working dog" training be of benefit to my dog in making her more confident and defensive even if she isn't going to be ppd, or is it really a waste of time in these exercises outside of that intention?
I would love to work with her in this realm but just don't want to screw her up by creating frustration or unnecessary agitation if there is no real goal.

thanks

 Quote: rachel ramos

...could "working dog" training be of benefit to my dog in making her more confident...

What exactly do you mean by "working dog" training?

All my dogs greatly benefited from foundation bitework training together with OB. It helped a lot with Suzie's fearful aggression issues and is a great way to release the stress. Performing OB exercises during tug play teaches them how to control their drive.

It isn't my goal to make my dogs more "defensive" or train them to be PPDs, though.

Rachel,
Are you talking about the 'protection game' they play in the ring sports?
Or are you talking about going through real life ppd training? Which in mho has little or nothing to do with 'games' from the very beginning.
In a similar vein, the sports venues have little to do with protection as such. Not that there aren't various pressures put on the dog, it's just that for the most part it's all a game for the dog.

So are your questions directed toward the 'protection' phase in the arena? Or are you inquiring about ppd work?

And Rachel,
The word defensive is used for the most part as a fear based reaction.
So yes, inappropriate training certainly can make your dog more defensive.

Ok. @ann: Well, as Ed says, the approach for raising a pet is different than a working dog. He discusses different approached to socialization and corrections and other things if you are intending your dog to be a working dog. Also much of the bite work and drive exercises are geared toward building a foundation for working. People raising pets have no real need for this information. So, if you have no intention of your dog doing Sch and it's not cut out for ppd, do these exercises serve any purpose. You kind of answered the question in saying it helped your dogs develop certain traits and work thru some issues so maybe it just depends on the dog.
@randy...sorry I think I misused the term "defensive". what I mean is, if you want a protective dog, but you know they cannot be a TRUE ppd, and that dog has guarding tendencies already, will this training result in a more confident dog that is more capable and possibly more apt to confront an attacker, or will it matter in the end. Will a dog that's going to tuck and run just tuck and run, no matter how much bite work you give him.

Rachel, my name is Ana, not Ann

 Quote: Rachel Ramos

if you have no intention of your dog doing Sch and it's not cut out for ppd, do these exercises serve any purpose. You kind of answered the question in saying it helped your dogs develop certain traits and work thru some issues so maybe it just depends on the dog.

All dogs benefit from training. The goal with my 3 pet dogs is to give them the best training I could and take them to the highest level each of them could achieve. All dogs bite and all dogs have prey drive to some extent. Utilizing this drive and being able to control them in drive makes for a much more confident, relaxed and safe pets.