 Re: Thiamine Deficency
[Re: Charlie Snyder ]
#331645 - 05/06/2011 05:40 PM |
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Having discounted the common causes (raw fish in large amounts, sulfites or sulphur dioxide in kibble), I would want more info. I'd want bloodwork done.
Is there any coccidiosis is the background? How was it treated?
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Re: Thiamine Deficency
[Re: Connie Sutherland ]
#331646 - 05/06/2011 05:59 PM |
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... Is there any coccidiosis is the background? How was it treated?
I'm not trying to be mysterious. I'm trying to find out if there has been off-label use of amprolium.
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Re: Thiamine Deficency
[Re: Connie Sutherland ]
#331715 - 05/07/2011 07:36 AM |
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Lack of certain vitamins will cause neurologic problems in developing neonates.
I'd get a good pediatric vitamin (for children) and I'd be giving that 2 x a day, being certain that the vitamin contains thiamine. You must be careful not to overdose the
fat soluble vitamins ADEK, the B vitamins can't be overdosed.
If the situation is reversible you will see changes rapidly, within a week or two.
In chickens, IME, and in turkeys, this is not reversible, once you see it, it's too late.
Has this breeding been done before? There can be a genetic component to wry neck.
I suspect the vet was "spinning" the pups to check for vestibular problems which
can look similar.
Good luck - hoping for a good outcome for your litter -
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Re: Thiamine Deficency
[Re: Betty Landercasp ]
#331750 - 05/07/2011 02:07 PM |
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What are these pups eating out of?
Lead poisoning can have neuro symptoms, much more common, never saw B1 def, saw numerous lead cases.
Asphalt shingles, cheap pottery, peeling paint flecks in the dog house, wiring, batteries. Cheap pottery/feeding dishes were the most common.Shotgun pellets.
Do the pups have a tremor? A bobbing head as they approach their food?
The rabbit you fed -- commercial rabbit or rabbit someone shot?
Listeria is a bacteria which causes one sided nerve problems. Can they blink their eyes normally? Is the ear carriage normal for their age? Is it symmetrical (both ears the same) or is the ear weak on the side toward which they circle?
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Re: Thiamine Deficency
[Re: Betty Landercasp ]
#331758 - 05/07/2011 05:26 PM |
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I found some amprolium material I couldn't locate yesterday.
In an elephant paper. 
http://www.elephantcare.org/Drugs/amproliu.htm
This was why I asked about treating for coccidia:
QUOTE: In cattle, amprolium has approval for the treatment and prevention of E. bovis and E. zurnii in cattle and calves. Amprolium has been used in dogs, swine, sheep, and goats for the control of coccidiosis, although there are no approved products in the U.S.A. for these species.
QUOTE: It is reported that overdoses of amprolium will produce neurologic symptoms in dogs. Treatment should consist of stopping amprolium therapy and administering parenteral thiamine (1 - 10 mg/day IM or IV).
QUOTE: Prolonged high dosages can cause thiamine deficiency in the host ...
Also
http://cal.vet.upenn.edu/projects/dxendopar/drug%20pages/amprolium.htm
QUOTE: Trade names: Corid, Amprol
May cause thiamine deficiency if given at high rates.
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Re: Thiamine Deficency
[Re: Betty Landercasp ]
#331761 - 05/07/2011 05:31 PM |
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Lead poisoning can have neuro symptoms, much more common, never saw B1 def, saw numerous lead cases. .... Asphalt shingles, cheap pottery, peeling paint flecks in the dog house, wiring, batteries. Cheap pottery/feeding dishes were the most common.Shotgun pellets. ...
Betty, would this also be something that could have been passed along by the mother to the pups (if she had lead poisoning)? Maybe more pronounced in the little puppies than in the big mother?
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Re: Thiamine Deficency
[Re: Connie Sutherland ]
#331770 - 05/07/2011 06:59 PM |
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A deficiency would show in babies before the dam, that is classic.
A poisoning would as well, due to dose of poison to their tiny bodies.
I tend to think of infectious disease first, myself. These pups are just weaned, or in the process of weaning. Hard for me to believe that they have serious vitamin deficiencies if the mother is well fed, unless it is a huge litter, and the diet is ridiculous. Usually mothers milk has what babies need unless mother is seriously malnourished, or the pups are horribly parasite ridden.
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Re: Thiamine Deficency
[Re: Betty Landercasp ]
#331776 - 05/07/2011 07:53 PM |
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"Hard for me to believe that they have serious vitamin deficiencies if the mother is well fed, unless it is a huge litter, and the diet is ridiculous."
And the diet is not ridiculous; the O.P. has listed it.
As mentioned, I would want more info, and I would want blood-work. He has ruled out these triggers: a load of raw fish or a commercial food containing sulfites or sulphur dioxide.
And "i noticed neck problem 2 weeks ago well before i introuduced them to food."
I'm not a health professional. But I am still kind of stunned that the vet just pronounced thiamine deficiency and just recommended kibble. I had never heard of it except with regard to the raw fish-heavy diet (like I think a team of sled dogs whose thiamine deficiency was traced to their raw-fish diet), crappy kibble with sulfites or sulphur dioxide, and that article about prolonged off-label use of amprolium.
Maybe the vet is one of the "raw causes all illnesses" vets.
I hope the O.P. will quickly get a second opinion. JMHO.
"I tend to think of infectious disease first, myself."
So even more so: second opinion?
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Re: Thiamine Deficency
[Re: Connie Sutherland ]
#331779 - 05/07/2011 08:03 PM |
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I am still kind of stunned that the vet just pronounced thiamine deficiency and just recommended kibble.
Look at all the questions you have brought up, Betty.
This is what should have happened when the O.P went to the vet: a lot more questions/tests/etc.
JMO.
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Re: Thiamine Deficency
[Re: Connie Sutherland ]
#331785 - 05/07/2011 08:40 PM |
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Have I even mentioned how good it is to have you here? 
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