The way it's being described to me, it sounds as if your dog is either confused about what you want, or doesn't see you as more important than the environment.
Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but if my dog were doing this to me, I would think I was moving forward too fast, and the dog simply didn't understand its job- not assume the dog is choosing to ignore. Also know that sometimes it seems like dogs question whether sit means the same thing in a different room, place, yard, park, etc. Sometimes they need a little time to understand the command means the same everywhere.
Instead of worrying about reading every movement your dog makes, I would just go back to basics and start over. Maybe for a day, maybe weeks, maybe months. Depends on the dog. If your dog is this strong, go somewhere enclosed. Somewhere with no distractions at all. NOT a walk, someplace quiet and familiar like your kitchen or backyard. Start from scratch working on attention and charging the mark. Build up to basic obedience commands (over time) and eventually focusing while heeling. During this time (which should only be about 5 min or so, multiple times a day) there are no distractions. No phone, tv, etc. You are only focused on your dog.
When walking, leave the dog be. Let him sniff, and stop worrying about his body language. Have the only rule be that he can't pull - and YOU don't put tension on the leash. Make it his job to stay within a comfortable walking space of you. I would strongly urge the prong for this - just let him self correct by walking into the end of it if he goes too far, but don't "correct" or "pop" the line. Let walking time be just that - walking time. Relaxed, low key, etc.
Bottom line, I would stop worrying about trying to do obedience on general walks, don't make him heel, have a generic "with me" command or something. Basically, he has to stay generally close to you and not pull. That's it. Use the distraction free places to teach and shape the behaviors he doesn't quite "get" yet. After he "gets" it, start asking for the behaviors under distraction. Until he completely understands what you want, you will just keep the revolving cycle of frustration going. :-)


Edited by Cameron Feathers (06/02/2011 03:12 PM)
Edit reason: clarification

I have both a prong and an ecollar so in no way was I trying to discourage you from using either tool - however, from the description you provided, I personally feel something is not "right" if you are having to stem your dog that hard when he is simply smelling something... jmho.

However, since you only want information on the ear position, as Anne said, it is normally a sign of submission. Perhaps this will give you some more information which will be helpful:
http://www.pawsacrossamerica.com/interpret.html

I think that some of the problem you seem to be having..collars aside, is an engagement issue. If you can't keep your dog engage with only sniffing as a distraction & need to stim him that high I shudder to think what you might have to do to get his attention if a rabbit, cat, deer, chipmonk etc ran past.

Yes, go back to basics with him & increase distractions VERY slowly. I also think that maybe you have had a pretty heavy hand with the e-collar in the past, to require high stim to get him attention.

When I walk my dogs..they WALK. They don't sniff, stop, etc. They are given a 'walk with me' command (not the same as a heel command)which means that I expect them to walk along side of me with a loose leash. They are engaged with me & following my lead. If I turn they turn. You need a level of engagement from you dog to do this. Not the same high focus that you would require for a heel. If you are going to stop the walk & let the dog sniff, explore etc you need to make that clear to the dog & give him an 'ok' command or something that will allow him to do that. He doesn't decide on his own when he wants to explore or sniff...YOU DO.

I would not be correcting for this lack of engagement,attention ..whatever you choose to call it without being able to do this in a distraction free enviroment to begin with & gradually upping the distractions.

I, personally, don't consider sniffing a distraction, but that's just me. I expect my dogs to walk with me. They learn very young that a walk is just that ...a walk. When they get their free time, they can do whatever they want....sniff, pee, whatever.

Thanks everyone for all the info. i will work on it.

we walked tonight on the prong. I'm sorry I don't have time to address everyone's input tonight. I generally reserve my remote trianing questions for emails to Ed or Cindy,as I am following their training methods and you can't ride two horses with one a$$. and the stength of the correction he needed today was a big concern and one I would ask about. But I will say that ignoring his body language is a mistake IMHO, and also letting him choose where he goes on walks to start withbis what got us here in the first place. That neing said, the walk was better tonight. I will work for a few days abd get back to you all. Thanks for the input. I took the things that were relevant to where we actually are, and am trying to get this figured out.

I can tell exactly what my pointy eared dogs are thinking by the position of their ears. I am attempting to include pics of my dogs with the described ear position.

In my experience, ears held back and down means submission. My dogs ears will go straight back after a correction. I can get them to come back up by using praise for a simple thing like looking at me http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.160496687324642.28999.100000929359537#!/photo.php?fbid=160497283991249&set=a.160496687324642.28999.100000929359537&type=1&theater (I had just put a shirt on Drift and she wasn't sure what to think)

Ears up but off to the side, is a relaxed dog. http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.105464439494534.3146.100000929359537#!/photo.php?fbid=105473492826962&set=a.105464439494534.3146.100000929359537&type=1&theater (Caterina)

Ears back and eyes wide is a fearful dog. http://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?fbid=149757968398514&set=a.105464439494534.3146.100000929359537&type=1&theater (Caterina when there was some noise in the other room she wasn't sure of)

If they are gearing up for a squabble, their ears will be straight up with the tips almost touching. No pics of this, sorry.

There are lots of good books on canine body language too. Learning to read your dog, will be invaluable in your training. You will be able to see just what he's thinking and respond accordingly.

Hope this helps a little

--Kel

(if the links don't work, let me know and I can email the pics to you)

Thanks for taking the time to post pics, Kelly.

I have started marker training with Jethro for leash pressure because when we are getting into a dicey situation I tend to tighten up on the leash and that tends to signal arousal in him. So I have started randomly tightening up on the leash and clicking and treating him, so the leash tightening means he is going to get a treat and make eye contact with me instead of scanning the environment looking for something that might say, "Boo!".

Jethro likes his prong, too, I'm not sure why. I did make sure to always give him a treat when the prong came out, so the jangle of the prong links means there is a treat for him.

I've been learning to pick my battles and build rapport with my dogs. Sometimes we just amble along, I let them set the pace and there is a lot of sniffing, peeing, and slow progress. Other times I pick up the pace and we walk briskly but the leashes are loose. They are expected to keep up, no dilly dallying, but not in a Heel. I bring them into a Heel when I want them to avoid something, or we need to get past something. One thing I have found with Jethro is that a scent can be as powerful as a dog nearby. If he picks up the scent of a coyote, raccoon or skunk, he pretty much acts like a national emergency has been declared. I wouldn't assume what your dog was sniffing was something of low distraction value.

I know you are getting lots of excellent professional advice, so my contribution might not be as useful, but... I highly recommend Control Unleashed by Leslie McDevitt for building non-verbal communication and engagement with your dog. Not forced, just getting to some default behaviours that can also serve in an emergency. Think about it, if you are completely dependent on an electronic device for control, what will you have in the event that the device fails for some reason?

That was actually very helpful. I do listen to what everyone says and go through it for what is realistic and relevant for our particular situation. The reason I pushed for the answer to the question I asked was that posts can sometimes get way off on what everyone wants to let you know, and the question you asked gets lost. I have learned to ask mostly one question per post, and will post separately for other things, because if you list 5 questions, it will tend to only get one or two answered in the same post.

And you do really have to decide to follow a system of some sort and not take everyone's advice, although there is usually a good point in everyone's advice that you can use or tuck away for future reference. More than one tool in your toolbox, but on a program I think. And I have gotten about 6 or 7 different leerburg videos with a bunch of the ellis ones in there and they are fabulous. But sometimes there is that thing that you miss or screw up, or just don't understand.

there is always the issue of not always sharing all the relevant info when asking a question so it can be really hard for people to know what advice to give. Like being heavy handed with the remote before, that would be a great piece of info, except we had almost never gone past the page. But it is hard to get it all in a post. This was the first time we needed to do much more than page. What I discovered is that I don't think i have it fitted correctly and so he is getting unreliable signals. he is so thick and full of skin under his neck that it seems that I am choking him with it, then it slides around, depending on how he moves his head.

We have gone back to the prong for walking, and actually I use a flat collar for around here. he is actually a pretty good leash walker except for when he is intested in other things, so we need to be out of the yard and in those other things before we can progress. I agree wholeheartedly that he needs to be able to be controled without the bells and whistles. I think we are getting him to like the prong better, too. I think it was using it to start with in the class atmosphere and he just learned to dislike it. I have also learned the quick light pops to get him moving instead of the one, I learned that from the videos and it works great. he isn't a puller, he is a lagger, and he will hit the end of it if he sees something like a squirrel run.

I will keep everyone posted on how we progress over the next couple weeks with our new and improved walking program and then I will see what everyone has to say about it. And yes, I agree that depending on what the smell is, it can be really really interesting.