Vince, I don't even know you. Sorry you take disagreement so personally. Is there some reason you didn't highlight the points of my messages that coincide with sch3fh2??? Don't you like me?????

Like you or not this was a great thread.I don't know what you guys were talking about,but it was thought provoking. Keep bumping heads we all enjoyed it.I like you Vince.

milt

Alan:

That was my attempt at using humor to reduce tension.

Once again...I got that Vince. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Alan and Vince,

Hopefully not too much tension...your debates are outstanding.

When commenting on other factors besides timing to conceder when giving a correction I referenced an earlier post. I can’t find it but a few were:

Hardness level of the dog
Age of the dog/Maturity
The dogs understanding of what’s expected from him
Bond and/or handler sensitivity issues
If the dog’s in drive and which one

Thanks Vince, all very good points to consider. No tensions at this end of the internet.

From the reactions of the members our interactions were educational. And after all that is what this is all about.

The process of getting a fast DOWN IN MOTION begins on the first day of training the Down. I will only talk about "training in drive here."

I assume that those reading this post understand what <a href="http://leerburg.com/101e.htm"> training in drive means</a>

When the time comes to train the DOWN the handler puts the dog in high drive for his toy, the dog is given a DEEP STRONG Down command that is accompanied with a strong jerk to the ground, if it is necessary to slam the dog between the shoulder blades with with the palm of the hand to get him to go down you do it. The INSTANT the dog goes Down the toy is tossed on the ground in front of the dog.

How to deliver the toy is important. It is not just dropped - it needs to go to the ground very quickly and it should bounce about a foot infront of the dog. Delivering the toy quickly builds drive. Drive,Compulsion, Drive

When the Down is trained this way it takes 2 or 3 days for a dog to learn. The dog learns to go Down very quickly and when he goes down his ears are up and forward. The Down becomes a drive exercise.

From there the training is then taken off the training field. The dog is worked in ramdom down situations. If the e-collar needs to be used on a NICK situation to reinforce the command it can be used. The dog is again rewarded the INSTANT it goes down. This exercise is not designed to train a dog to down for a long period of time, but rather the goal is a qucik down.

When the dog is solid on random downs it can be brought back to the training field. If there is even the slightest question on the speed issue the e-collar should be on the back of the back of the dogs neck and only used ON THE NICK setting.

In the beginnnig when the handler gives the Down while in motion he rewards with the toy (which is hanging from a cloths pin on a line around his neck) after 2 steps. This keeps the dog in drive (ears up and forward) It is repeated and the dog is rewarded after 5 steps then 2 steps then 3 steps then 10 steps then 2 steps until after two weeks of training the handler is going 50 steps. The key is that the dog never knows when the toy comes. The further the handler gets from the dog the higher it goes in drive.

Thats how you get really fast recalls.

I am not a fan of the many ways to train the down by only using compulsion. There are many ways to do this and I am familiar with most of them. Most have a negative effect on the speed of the recall.

Gee whizzzz, I never thought that, what seemed as such a "simple" facet of training, could be scrutinized and dissected to such an extent still trying to digest some of the terms out there. Great to see the various aspects relevant to each dog as an individual. Such great, extremely informative posts. Thanks