It would be great if we could start a thread on this. I learned from here:



From http://leerburg.com/markers.htm ....

QIOTE: The first step in training markers is to study the system. Know where you are going and understand the the details of how your going to get there. In other words study the details of how the marker system works.

We start teaching this system by showing our dog that every time “YES" or every time they hear a click from a clicker they get a really high value food treat. The system starts with food and not toys. The reason we start with food is that many high drive dogs can't focus in the presence of a toy. They go into a zone where they can't think. This doesn't happen with food. So we set the foundation of markers with food and once that's done we introduce the dog to the work for to rewards.

The first training step is called CHARGING THE MARK. It can be done anywhere, in your kitchen, your basement, or your back yard. The goal of charging the mark is to teach the dog to associate hearing YES with knowing he is going to get a high value reward.

When we start charge the mark training the dog does not have to do anything to get marked. We simply say YES or click the clicker and give the dog a food treat. He doesn't have to sit, he doesn't have to come to us, he doesn't have to d anything. We just say YES and feed the dog, YES and feed the dog, YES and feed the dog.

New trainers need to understand that the only dog training going on during CHARGE THE MARK is to make the dog realize that saying YES means "my handler is going to give me a really good food treat."

There are handler responsibilities in CHARGING THE MARK. It is important that the word YES is never said at the same instant you move your arm to reach for the food treat. For this program to work there must be short time lapse in time between saying the word YES and moving the arm to produce the food reward.

You will know your dog is getting it when you say YES and the dog looks at you like HEY, GIVE ME THAT TREAT!!! Most dogs pick up the concept of a CHARGED YES OR CHARGE THE CLICK in the first training session. If you go out and say YES to a dog 30 to 50 times in a row he is going to connect the dots. END QUOTE


And this part is good (was for me, anyway) to practice without the dog, in a mirror:
There are handler responsibilities in CHARGING THE MARK. It is important that the word YES is never said at the same instant you move your arm to reach for the food treat. For this program to work there must be short time lapse in time between saying the word YES and moving the arm to produce the food reward.

By "short," at this very beginning, it means "short." I start with an instant (but no neglecting that instant; the instant of no arm movement is needed). Enough to make sure you are not telegraphing the arm movement to the reward until the marker is given (said or clicked).

PS

And while I have seen every subsequent video, I admit that this static method is still how I always load the marker.

I would love to hear from folks who started differently (perhaps with #220) as well as those who learned as I did: have you updated, changed, as you have started different dogs?

With Andy, the traditional way. Click,feed,click,feed,click,feed. With Chaos, I didnt. It was all luring into positions and then releasing to come up for the treat with movement. When he was moving smoothly through the positions correctly with the luring, I added the release word.

sorry can't remember the #'s but i studied "power of markers" , "power of food" , "power of tug" , " advanced concepts in motivation " and all the little free videos i could find that were related in some way . as well , i did internet study on operant vs. classical conditioning and read " excel-erated learning " ( recommended reading from ME ) . in other words , i was pretty well versed in the " theory " of the material .

what i found / find challenging is the practical , real world application of the principles .

i started " charging the mark " literally from the time i first enticed henry out of his crate after his flight from eastern canada . obviously no expectations of anything , i just felt that after 7 hours of isolation why not plant the seed early in his mind that the first guy to get me out of this box would also be the guy with all the food . and i followed what i guess is the accepted method : have his attention ( !? ), mark ( i'm using " yes " ), moment of pause , move to reward , repeat .

not specifically " charging the mark " but i did learn the importance of having the delivery hand moving away from the dog to stimulate some pursuit drive , but i will readily admit there are times when i am literally pulling a stick out of his mouth while jamming food in . it takes a moment , but there is a marked moment where he seems to make a distinction : what this guy has is way better than what i had .

hth . . .

" ..... have his attention ( !? ), mark ( i'm using " yes " ), moment of pause , move to reward , repeat ."



You were marking his attention on you?

Or did you still mark/reward if not?

Not arguing! Just asking.

http://leerburg.com/flix/player.php/529/Michael_Ellis'_Philosophy_of_Dog_Training

Description starts at 12:00

What am I missing about marker loading?
I've seen a couple of people talk about moving the food/toy delivery hand away to create drive or stimulate stimulate pursuit. Is this adding to the marker somehow?
Maybe I'm just old and forgetful.

yes , connie , at the outset , as long as i had him somewhat focused on me i'd mark , pause , reward .

now that we've been at it for a month things look a lot more in sync . it still ain't perfect , but there are moments of brilliance , which is what keeps you going lol .

and bob , that was one of the things mike was a bit of a stickler for : don't just push the food towards the dog , let him move to get it . yes it does add value to the reward , but it also helps to make it clearer to the dog that he is done with the behaviour and is released to get his reward .

Thanks Ian! I can except that explanation. I've just not had any dogs that didn't automatically see the mark as a release.

I maybe the only one here with one pet type dog and a working type.

With Harley chasing the reaward made it all more fun for him, I could just shove the food in his mouth. But he get more motivated if he moves.

Dexter will turn off if the food is too hard to get, too often. He get more excited about training if I shove the food in his mouth. One chase here and there but any food that lands 2 feet from him lose all interest. He is not very good at catching flying treat even pop corn!!