Hello all! My (almost) 7-month old GSD pup, Brody, is doing great. We are training according to all of the Michael Ellis videos I have purchased (too many to list) as well as our local Schutzhund club trainer, who is great. He is coming along very nicely!

Due to dog shows, Giardia from the dog shows, club trial, etc. I haven't been able to get him to training recently. I will be asking our trainer this as well, but I wanted to get some advice from the great forum members we have here too.

His platz is the only thing he is having difficulty with, in that when ever I give the command and lure him into position with the food reward, he will go into a down but he almost always rolls his butt over to one side. I have been luring with the food out in front of his face, in the center, just like ME says to do so in "The Power Of Training Dogs With Food".

When he does flop his butt over on the side, I use an "uh-uh" or "almost" comment and don't reward. I will the lure him again into the position and issue the command. On the rare occasion he does platz correctly I jackpot his rewards.

I don't think he's making the connection yet as he always likes to roll his butt over to one side or the other. He comes from a very, very good line all with excellent hips/elbows so I don't think it would be a physical issue.

I was considering using barriers on either side, but I don't think they would work since his hip/butt roll is so slight any barrier would need to basically pin him in the center.

Is there anything I can do to work on this problem with him or should I just keep doing what I am doing and trust that he will eventually make the connection?

Thanks!

For a quick answer I would NOT reward anything but the correct position. That means his butt up under him. Anything else is incorrect & doesn't get any reward. If he doesn't get it after a few times..go on to something that he knows & does correctly & will get rewarded for. Then go back to the down. If you just do the down & he doesn't get it right & never gets rewarded for his efforts...he will shut down....ergo the reason that I would switch to somehting he knows for a few times & then go back again. You want to keep him motovated to train & keep it positive.

Some pups have what I would call a lazy hip. Nothing wrong with it...just lazy about tucking it up under themselves. But in saying that I would not rule out that fact that he could have a problem with his hips. You would not know unles you x-ray. Don't know if you plan on doing a prelim on him or not...but you could to see if there is an issue there.

Placing him in an 'chute' type of area where he has less room to move & shift might help...but you don't seem to think it will.

Also getting him to do his commands quickly & rewarding fast(releasing him) when he is correct will not give him the time to shift his weight over.

My dogs will do that (shift their weight over & do a relaxed down) if I tell them to lay down as opposed to telling them to platz (down)which to them are 2 different commands.

Work with your trainer as he can see what is going on & can correct anything that you are doing wrong. But I suspect that it may be slow timing on your part in the initial training of the position. That reward has to be indstantanious when they are correct ....or they can shift that position just slightly & you end up with where you are.

Good luck.

Thanks Anne! I never reward incorrect downs and when he does do it straight the reward is immediate. Last night after he did a couple of crooked ones we did some sits instead, then went back and he actually got a few of the platzs correct. I went back to using two hands to lure and then reward when he was in the right position.

I will work on releasing him quickly in order to not give him time to shift over, thanks!

This weekend I am going to a trial at our club, so I will have plenty of time to ask my trainer for additional advice as well.

not sure if this will help , but it might , so i'll pass it on . .

when i was down training with ME early in the summer , there was a mother / son ( human ) team with a pair of akita puppies . the puppies were about 16 - 20 weeks , so right in the fluffy clumsy absolutely adorable stage .

when the owners lured the dogs into a down , both dogs would flop over onto a hip , sometimes left , sometimes right , sometimes both in the same down !

when michael took over , he demonstrated such precision and mastery in his presentation of the lure he could manipulate the pups onto either left , right or centered position in their downs , and was able to pass the knowledge , if not the practice , of that skill onto the owners .

so , not sure if you are still using lures to obtain a behaviour , but there is no harm in taking a step back to get the precise behaviour you desire , marking and rewarding only the ones that meet your standards . once he reliably demonstrates what you want to see , you can increase your distance , duration , distraction , etc .

/end shameless ME plug . . .

whoops , sorry missed the part about two handed luring , carry on

Edited by ian bunbury (11/14/2012 09:59 PM)
Edit reason: missed info from OP

I can only say that you need to get your timing perfect. As said before you need to reward the "exact" second his elbows hit the ground. I would then get excited and draw him off the down position to give him the reward. This shouldn't hurt the down because you've already marked the behavior. Luring is fine. Just don't hang onto it to long.
Also, he's still a pup and this is often a puppy down. sit can be the same way. Over onto the hip. going onto the hip can actually be a good thing for a down stay in both Schutzhund and AKC because the dog is less apt to get up when he's over on his hip. If he's a high energy, high drive dog this shouldn't be to hard to get through.
Be patient, relax and enjoy the puppy!

Ian, I am working on "steering" his head in many other areas as well to control the rear. Thanks!

Thanks Bob! I will work on rewarding the second his elbows hit the floor starting today.