You guy sounds like a dog who failed out of a duck hunting program.

Many labs here in MN are hard headed brutes with tons of drive, and they are trained by fellas with a heavy hand and a constant stim collar. Many labs are so jazzed to jump into water and to fetch that it works ok---big money is spent on dogs that are ready for the season. But softer dogs can crump out, loose confidence, disengage.

Tug is not something you want a bird dog to do. Maybe he was trained, maybe with force, to drop anything he brings and to not mouth it. And NOT to eat a meaty thing he has in his mouth. A dog that EATS the bird is worthless.

Maybe try treats that are not raw. Bacon, crispy, or maybe liverwurst, tiny balls of it. My guy likes candy corn.

I'd train him on things that are far away from fetch, like hand touch, then pushing a door shut. Little tricks you can really praise. Maybe fetching was an awful job for your guy.

You might email Bob Scott, I think he did gun dog training. I bet he would have insight.

The prey drive that a retriever has is different from that of herders, and both are different from hounds. Your dog has probably at least started with dummies and will never be comfortable playing tug.

I'd develop his drive for a ball and use ball tosses and the ball itself as a reward. I wouldn't let him have the ball unless we were training, and I'd DEFINITELY use it for the crate training.

You can build food drive by withholding meals, but, IMHO, that isn't necessary if he has ball drive.

Betty and Duane, makes sense, thanks for the insight. Ranger likes to fetch, he will bark and stap his teeth together until you toss the ball, well I use a racket. He prefers to be able to jump up and get it in the air off a bounce as opposed to just getting it off the ground.

I've seen hunt dog trainers that will simply scruff and toss in a dog that doesn't want to get in a box. They are getting paid to teach the dog to hunt and don't like to waste the time teaching the dog to kennel without conflict. Grabbing his collar would remind him of that.

I know sometimes we all sound like we're plugging the DVDs but The Power of Training Dogs with Food is worth the money.

Novelty can sometimes be as much of a treat as the actual taste is. Popcorn is normally a novel food item. Putting it in a bag and shaking it with a teaspoon of garlic powder can make it more appealing. Frozen pieces of pumpkin puree, unsweetened yogurt, etc are fun and different although they pretty much limit you to the kitchen. My dog loves cinnamon so he gets baked pumpkin cinnamon treats as a high value reward. He isn't likely to have been rewarded with tuna either. I've made these before http://www.workingdogs.com/doc0179.htm with tuna instead of liver. I find organ meats too rich for most dogs in the quantity used for marker training. Make the food move and become a prey item.

You say he's 100+ lbs. Could he stand to lose a few or is he one of those body builder looking labs?

He's not likely to have ever been exposed to a clicker. Introducing a completely novel sound that means only one thing(Good things are coming!) might help with his attitude towards learning to do things that remind him of earlier training experiences. I would start with just some basic tricks that have no resemblance to obedience or hunt training. Make it fun! Keep your voice upbeat and friendly. Short sessions with simple behaviors and lots of easily earned fun rewards. Don't use a negative marker. Once he understands the clicker and is having fun with it you could introduce a verbal marker and then move on to behaviors that might have been somewhat poisoned by force.

"Popcorn....Putting it in a bag and shaking it with a teaspoon of garlic powder .

Frozen pieces of pumpkin puree,

unsweetened yogurt

baked pumpkin cinnamon treats"

wow that's all neat, thanks for sharing tips.

as far as crate training, altho not ME or Ed DVD, wanna see dogs getting crazy for the crate, buy Susan Garret crates games (or some title like that)

her dogs go for the crate like ME mal goes for a tug...well almost

I have stuffed XL Kongs with ice cubes for kenneling before just because Chance LOVES chewing on ice (weirdo) - frozen bits of puree and yogurt would be perfect for this.

Why bother with food if he doesn't have the drive? I'd reward with the ball. Lure him in with the ball, even if it takes a while at first. Let him keep the ball in the crate, but take it away when he comes out.

 Quote: Kendall Cook

He sometimes doesn't want to "kennel up", this is a random thing that doesn't happen all the time. Sometimes he will happily go in his kennel.

and

 Quote: Kendall Cook

he will urinate if I try to gently lead him to his kennel by his collar. Sometime I can put his leash on him and get him moving to where he will go on in but he seems to know when the leash is for this purpose instead of a walk and starts to cower away from it.

I think these are two separate issues, the first doesn't sound like fear at all. It sounds like a living, thinking being who on occasion develops hearing loss due to crate time not being on his agenda at that moment. Unless you can tie it into specific times it occurs and see a pattern or he's uncomfortable and anxious once inside the crate, I would not make "kennel up" an issue.

The urinating when held by his collar, and avoidance of the leash when its being used to move him into the crate sounds like a submissive response. Which doesn't indicate abuse or fear though it doesn't rule them out but either way you'd like your guy to feel more confident.

I would leave a leash on him at all times in the house and avoid the stress of putting it on him when you do need to use it to maneuver him in the house.

He is still new to you, so I would definitely work on building the relationship through play and what ever floats his boat is the way to go(safety of course being paramount). And I would also start introducing some quick positive handling around his neck area, after you've thrown the ball a couple of times when he brings it back give him a real quick good boy scritch on his neck as you are throwing the ball again. Make it one fluid movement so that the touch isn't isolated and make him think twice. Slowly but surely build up his tolerance of the area around his neck which will also build his confidence. Go really slow with this, its one of those things where if you rush, you could end up back at square one.
Dr. Betty did a ton of work with her Pinker and can probably add more on that topic.
Also, I too can not say enough about marker training for confidence. There is a great selection of DVDs on Leerburg and you can preview lots of them to see if they resonate with you.

bump

Kendall, Jamie, a terrific trainer on here, trained her ACD using a frisbee as a reward, at least some of the time.
If your dog likes to snatch stuff out of the air, a Frisbee, especially the kind for dogs that are easy to pick up, could be the ticket.
Beware of too much jumping up though. It's hard on the stifle, especially in a 100 pounder.