Bob that's good to know. He will re-grip the tug so fast and then he tends to come near the hands during that re-grip to one side or the other, the whole time pulling back and thrashing. The getting bit part is least fun to me lol.

The out and rebite (i.e., rewarding with a bite for the out) is the most effective that I have seen and used.

A dog who is comfortable gripping will sometimes out better. Thrashing is a no-no, as you want the dog's grip to be deep and quiet. I have seen some dogs improve on the out after they had undergone some conditioning to grip solidly and more quietly. If you have a helper, IMO start working on grip and include the out in those exercises AFTER you see the gripping improve and thrashing diminish.

The out is one of the most stressful behaviors for a protection dog, and, just as with the other behaviors in protection, if you can relieve some of the stress in the dog during the session, ALL of the behaviors should improve.
You may not be comfortable with the idea, but the "into my arms" technique that Flinks uses is wonderful for getting a dog to relax while on the sleeve. That, and running the dog in a circle are very effective ways to quiet the grip and relieve some of the stress that agitation produces. Bart Bellon even has his dog carry a sleeve while bicycling, which teaches the dog to breathe even with a deep grip. A dog who can breathe will not be as stressed.

The key to the lock up for most is to hold the tug with both hands. hands against your knees and the tug between your knees.against your leg.

When the dog does remove it's mouth you can initially hold it right there but eventually you want to slooowly bring it up higher before marking.

for obvious reasons you don't want it to still be against you when you mark it again.

I also like the dog to back off the bite for the same reason that you don't want it to chase the tug by you taking it away.

The Flinks idea of "into my arms' can work for some dogs but can stress a dog that doesn't like to be hugged, hoovered over or a dog that is dominant....which is totally another story.

I have two dogs (Pit and Lab-Mix) who play tug fairly well, provided the are in the mood. They out immediately when I give the command and make the tug seem dead.

But my second Pit does not tug at all. She is not interested in any toy, unless she can steel it from one of the other dogs. Means it is not a disability of gripping. (As she is a dominant one I don't let them play together any more already since a long time).

I offer the tug, as if it were a prey, escaping in the last second, backing up quickly. But it doesn't motivate her. With the other two this works and they bite pretty ferociously as soon as they get the tug. I also let them win often, as Mark Keating recommended me in his "Relationship Games".

With the second Pit, I don't even get the chance to let her win, nor do I get the chance to give an out command, because she doesn't grip at all. She doesn't even pick up a toy (Tug, ball or other item). I also cannot play Hide and Seek with her, she simply doen't care about such games.

I've tried to follow the advice of Michael Ellis in his DVD The Power of playing Tug .... She allows me to hold her muzzle with my hands and to walk like this two o three steps. For this I mark and reward. I can also put a tug into her mouth, she doesn't resist, so I mark and reward. But she doesn't want to hold the item without me holding her mouth, not even for a fracture of a second. If I let go she immediately lets it fall down. So I cannot mark and reward for this.

I have no idea what is going on in her mind. Without be motivated by being dominant she has no reason to grip. Does that mean she is one of the dogs without prey drive? Should I just accept this and refrain from those games with her? On the other hand she would certainly chase a cat, a monkey etc if she could.

her being "dominant" with the other dogs doesn't have any connection with her not wanting to grip the tug.

Will she chase a ball or anything thrown?

When you put the tug in her mouth do you correct her for dropping it?

Something as simple as a tap under the chin can make a dog think about holding on to it.

Are you pulling both of your hands away at the same time? It should be the top hand first followed by the bottom hand until the pressure from the bottom hand is so slight that the dog can hardly feel it. At that point you can sneak in a second of the bottom hand just hovering and mark before the dog has realized that the hand is no longer there. Then you can gradually build the distance that you pull the hand away. As Bob mentioned it might take a "no" for dropping it before they really get the idea,

Hi Bob,

I mentioned her being dominant, because the only situation where she grips, is when she can steel a toy from another dog. She lurks behind a wall or something and then snaps it and carries it away. But I don't play this any more, because she can get aggressive.

No she doesn't chase anything thrown. (So, as I just wrote, she would, if another dog chased it.)

No, I didn't correct her when she dropped the toy. Could easily be that this was the mistake. I will try it with that tap under the chin.

Thanks a lot!

Hi Cathy,

yes I am pulling both hands away at the same time. Great idea to do it your way. Probably I have not observed very well, what is shown in Michaels DVD. I will catch up with this.

I think it is no coincidence that both, Bob and you, presumed my mistake happening at this point.

Thanks a lot for your advice. I will let you both know, if it works. I guess it will need some time.

 Quote: Cathy Goessman

Are you pulling both of your hands away at the same time? It should be the top hand first followed by the bottom hand until the pressure from the bottom hand is so slight that the dog can hardly feel it. At that point you can sneak in a second of the bottom hand just hovering and mark before the dog has realized that the hand is no longer there. Then you can gradually build the distance that you pull the hand away. As Bob mentioned it might take a "no" for dropping it before they really get the idea,

With markers once you give the mark THEN would be the perfect time to put the tug back in motion by moving backwards away from the dog. That should then create a desire to go after the tug again.

If the dog nips your hands or clothes then it's "Nope" game over. Wait 20-30 seconds then start again.

The dog needs to learn that teeth on the wrong thing creates consequences.