My dog is trained in the IPO retrieve but still plays two ball. She also knows which game is which because she recognizes the difference between the dumbbell and her toys.

In my two ball sessions, I start by using the second ball as a reward for returning the ball she has. I do not use food during play, but I do mark things I like (such as giving a dropped ball) and reward with a toss or some tug. Like you, a dropped ball is given a "give it to me" command, and she is not m/r until she gives it to my hand. Even play can have rules. Unlike her IPO "Brrring", she is not always required to front, sit, or hold when she returns it.

After many play sessions with two ball, my dog can now play without bringing the ball to hand. When she gets close, just before she breaks stride, I toss the second ball. She naturally drops the first and races off for the tossed ball. Be mindful, though..,. I have seen dogs try to retrieve a ball when they still have a ball in their mouth. If this is undesirable, you can back up and make the dog bring the toy to hand until the dog is conditioned to coming all the way in.

FWIW I can still use a toy in the IPO retrieve. Even though she knows what the dumbbell means, I can use a toy to bring her to heel, make her wait, give her the "brrring", and her retrieve, front, hold, and out will be correct. I used a squeaky toy dumbbell to backchain the front, look, hold, and retrieve.

Even after I introduced the regulation dumbbell, I reinforced the IPO front and hold during our play sessions. Our dogs are magnificently intelligent (moreso than we are even now beginning to realize). After four years of play and training, Sadie can read me and perform as expected with little verbal communication. We can be playing with numerous toys and no formal retrieves, but if I were to not accept a returned ball or make another toss, she will offer a front, look, and hold to see if that is what I expect.

If you were to visit an IPO or PSA club, you would see that the distinction between training and play is not finite in working dogs. Play is the primary reward. There are handlers and dogs who work strictly, but the working dog community has largely shifted to positive training using toys and tugs as reward. Training sessions are viewed by the dog as a chance to play, and the dog's toys are valued more highly than food.

Thanks, Duane. Great perspicuous explanation! So if they drop a frisbee before I threw the second one I will give the "bring It" command, mark and reward with the next toss. I've thought it over and believe, that this is more consistency than just continuing playing directly. I think they'll be better reinforced not to drop it too early. They are already quite good in doing this, but mishaps are simply part of the whole maneuvre.

A confusion with the retrieve until now never happened. They get for this game the command "Cadé?"(= Where?") and seem to distinguish well which game is meant. Perhaps they also distinguish it because for the FETCH I always use frisbees and for the RETRIEVE all kind of different toys.

For the retrieve as I said have rewarded with food and want to change this. But how do I do this without disappointing the dogs? Can I give alternately reward food, then with the next game with continuing playing and so slowly fade out the food reward or should I brutally stop giving food at all and at once when playing?

Do you give before the toss also a command? For me I think it diminishes the rapidness of the game. Is the averbal command, the movement of my arm and body not enough?

I agree that most dogs are much more interested in playing than in food. Though there are others.My brain damaged Charlie doesn't react at all on toys. One of my Pits doesn't ever pck up an object I have tossed. She only runs and tries to steel it from her sister. Only then she will grab it, but then play tug of war with her, which I don't allow any more because it can easily escalate to a fight,



I've followed ME's tugging DVD, but we are completely stuck at the point where she should hold the tug. I've tried it with numerous different ones. Not interested at all! I think she is born as thief. She though plays with me when I let her chase me, making quick turns and things like that. So I play with her that way.

With her sister I can tug easily, she outs perfectly and grabs the toy crazily again, when I say "Ok" und move away. Do you have an idea what I could do with the other two ?
Someone told me, I should motivate them with a flirt pole. I bought one and they react sometimes a little bit, but loose interest already after a few movements.

Duane said
"Even after I introduced the regulation dumbbell, I reinforced the IPO front and hold during our play sessions."

That formality is key to the biggest difference between "fun" and "formal retrieves is the dog learns what to expect based on "your" body language in both.

Consistency in how you train and what you expect is key to both "fun" and formality.

Thanks, Bob. I learned the beginning of the retrieve in Mark Keatings Relationship Games. It was done in an informal way, but with a regular mark and reward (food or game) when they handed the item over to me. Delivering the food as a reward event is in my eyes somehow also a game. Or not? However the emphasis was on fun.

The fetch I tried for myself, I had only read about it how to toss the frisbee in the inicial phase. I just want to train it in an informal way.

But does formal training exclude fun? There are of course more rules the dog (and handler) should follow. But I've got the idea everything we do with our dogs should be fun, (except of course the corrections). The dogs obviously have fun doing all this, it seems to be a game for them, even if they have to follow more rules.

How about the recalls? I've learned it with a harness in order to frustrate/motivate the dog before we call him. Then he had to run to me and stop sitting in front of me. So, if I understand you right this was formal. Later on I trained other formal finishes ( end sitting between my legs and come into heel position), everything of course with mark and reward. The finishes Between and Front they do meanwhile without me giving a specific command, they know where to come when my legs are open or closed. For the Heel finish they still need a command. Could this perhaps because of an incorrect body position?

Consistency, oh yes! I think I'm quite consistent and with good timing with my release (Ok) and duration marker (Bom). I've practiced both like a fool and also taped it varios times, so I at least I believe to have always the same tone of voice.

Inconsistency I've noticed when giving commands, they don't always sound exactly the same. Should I train myself to give them always in the exactly same sound too? The dogs though seem to understand them, even if they differ a bit.

Sorry for the heap of questions. I hope I didn't formulate them in a confusing way.

In order to fade out food rewards in play, you will first have to build more value for the toy or tug. Only after the object has more value will it be gratifying enough to be self-rewarding. The reason I don't reward with food is because I can simply keep the play going by tossing or tugging.

No, I don't use any command when I am tossing a toy for a retrieve. Unless I tell her to wait or stay, any thrown ball is an invitation to fun. I do use a "bring" for Sadie to get an item and bring it to me (such as a toy laying on the ground or a newspaper). I use "give it to me" if she brings an item but does not give it to my hand, or if she wants to play keepaway and I do not.

The issues you describe about motivation and reward selection go back to breed, breeding, and building drive, which you already know and have been working on. Without the ability to create equal or adequate amounts of drive in your dogs, you will have to customize your expectations of each dog.

I use the term "fun and "formal" to distinguish between just a game and competition.

What precision you expect in the behavior is the only real difference between "fun and "Formal".

For me and the dog it's ALL a game.

For me dito. Good to heat that.

Sorry not heat, but hear.

Duane, as far as I can judge from far, I'm doing it like you. Exception the mistake of rewarding too often with food.

I also use more or less the same commands. I use "stand", when they have to stop and remain on four legs where they are, which works surprisingly well, although food is is calling!. No idea why. I use also "espere" (= wait), which works only 50/50 yet, Also "sit" and "down" at a distance and in the middle of an action, especially with the attraction of food, seems to be coming slowly, but the temptation is still too high. I have to change this.
When I throw food far from them I say "away". Do you think this is an error? I did this because I thought it could be a preparation for a send away. ???

The expectation of building drive I always had, but if one of my Pits simply doesn't have play drive neither the former stray, I'm ready to leave it, because I don't want do stress them with my expectations which they obviously can't fullfill. I'm though always thinking if and how I could achieve it in a for them individual manner. Maybe it's just a lack of experience or phantasie to do it with another dog in a better way. But on the whole if they all have their fun within training sessions it's also good for them and they really do love them and give me a naughty mouth if I break the session up. Then I beat them. I hait impertinences.

Addendum: I hope no one believed me the last part. I have sometimes a bit a rude way of joking. I've never in my life beaten an animal and will never do this.