In a relatively new exercise my dogs have to go backwards over a bar. The moment the put their front feet behind the bar - I mark/reward. Then they have to turn and walk backwards towards me and between my legs. I began this, standing on the bar and bit by bit I went a little step back and repeated the same manouevre etc. So far everything goes very fluently until about 5 m distance from me.

But they should turn near the bar, when coming back to me, I now waiting 3-5 m far from them. But darned, they strictly just turn when they're very near to me, although I've practiced this 100 times very near to the bar until it worked and slowly increased. I simply don't get it.

Could it be a mistake I had made even long before training this exercise? They have nearly perfect stays.(exception: to strong distractions.) I can jump over them, dance around them, run to and fro, go away even out of sight - they still sit, down, stand there like stuck.

But the other way round it doesn't work at all. If I e.g. say "sit" and they are some meters far from me, they don't sit,nothing works. Could it be that I have made myself too much part of the spectacle they have as a picture in mind? And so they come to me, when I give a command and follow it there.

Should I re-start with training the sits, downs, stands in a way that they follow them no matter from which distance I say it ? (Of course gradually) I've somehow got the impression, I shouldn't any more mark the very moment when they put their butt or belly on the ground, but a bit before - while they are moving themselves into the right position. The way I did it, they were probably reinforced just for the correct action, but in reality they should be reinforced for being focused on and listening to me.

Or should I better chose another command for those things, when I give the cue from further away. Maybe I've botched it and created in their head a false comprehension?

Am I seeing this wrong? What would you recommend?

Try doing this with a barrier on each side if the dog- a wall on one side and maybe a tunnel or something along the other side- this will teach them to back straight to you.

I would get them backing up straight before adding obstacles or anything else.

Or do I have the problem wrong?

Ditto with Kelly on the barriers.

As to distance with the basic commands.

Be very conscious of you body movement with these commands.

You may very well be cuing the dogs with your body movement.

That can trump the verbal command most every time.

Thanks you both so much and sorry, I've probaably not explained clearly enough.

A barrier on each side makes certainly sense to teach the dogs to walk straight.
Bit this they do already well without side-barriers.

And, Kelly,they have no obstacles on their way, just a free space.

The bar I spoke about is at some distance i just as a reference point how far they have to go. Once they've exceeded the bar backwards with all four feet : mark+ reward. Now they stand on the other side of the bar facing it; and me.

Next step should be an about turn, t make stand backwards again to the bar and me and then walk until they are between my legs. (All BACKWARDS) There they need no bar, as the ref.;point are my opened legs and then they will have to repeat the whole thing again.

There where this exercise was described they say to give no sign for the turn, the dogs will learn this by themselves. Buit ilater on I somehow doubted this. and gave them a handsign., of course no cue yet. But also no mark. Maybe this is the mistake? It probably makes everything unclear for them and because of this they turn somewhere in between in order to come between my legs.

The next step, which I've not really begun yet, would be to turn from between my legs and repeat the whole exercise. But I've gradually begun to change my position in a slight angle so they will learn to make a curve in order to come between my legs. They aim mostly very exactly.

The problem is the about turn on the other side, where the bar is.

Sense of the whole theatre:

1) Part of training body awareness in a bit an advanced way;
2) Chaining this later on with other exercises they already know well and create a little dog dance.

Sorry, I don't know how to describe it better. Hopefully I have not produced an even great mess!

Ok- so I think I get it - you want them to back away from you to this bar then rotate at the bar and back towards you to between you legs? Do I have that part right?

Instead of using a bar I would use the touch pad. I would use that as their place to back towards, have them stop with front feet on the pad, rotate on the pad and back toward you. If you want them to go between your legs, I would have a pad placed between my feet as well for a physical target to aim for that they are already familiar with.

You can break it down a little more by teaching the turn in the pad seperately- at this point you can even teach them to turn different directions - to the left or right.

My guess is that they are not seeing or understanding the bar as the target- using the touch pad as the target would help aince they have worked with touch pads before and understand that they are required to interact with it.

Yes, exactly. I see you know English. So simple in comparison with my complicated way.

The touch pad is a good advice. I'm only unsure, because they're already so much used to it, as you say for turning in both directions and also as target for coming to the correct spot for heel position. Will this not confuse them? On the other hand, I can see, this will make them understand, where they have to turn, so won't do it when they are already near to me

And: Is a second touch pad between my legs necessary, as they find their way meanwhile easily.

But practice the turns separately I will do without doubt. This sounds very necessary.

Thanks so much for the hints!

Dogs don't think of distance and duration like we do. You want them to back up a certain distance and all they really understand is that you want them to back up. Giving them the touchpad will give them a physical point to back to- some thing that they are required to interact with (touch) to let them know that they did the exercise correctly.

You can use the pole but instead of requiring them to "pass" it, have them stop when their back feet touch it. They need a physical termination point at the beginning phase of learning. I only recommended the touch pads because they know to interact with it since they have used touch pads in the past.

I would like to add that using the touch pad instead if the pole for the turn will result in a nice clean turn on the fore as they will be required to keep their front feet on the pad when turning- using a pole at the turn can result in a sloppy turn.

Using the touch pad should not confuse them- you are just introducing a new behavior with it.

You don't have to use the touch pad between your feet- again I just suggested it for the beginning stage of learning to help solidify a terminal point that they are to aim for. Some dogs need this step, others don't.

Thanks, Kelly, yes I understand. Using the pad for a new exercise will also generalize that thing. Also to avoid that they stop will be a big advantage.

What is unclear: Why should they turn with the front feet on the pad? I thought with the hind feet as they come backwards towards the pad and have to train a backwards turn.

I also asked myself if it were better to make them tutn around the pad, not on it because they will have to make a curve, not a turn on a point. This again would mean I'll have to train this part first separately. Would it be advisable to chose a bigger round item (plant pot, garbage can) in order to teach a wider curve.

They know the cue "around" well, but forwards. So I guess, I would have to choose another cue for curving backwards once they've understood what i want.?

Sorry for so many additional questions.

You can do a turn on the fore or the hind- up to you. You can train both with a different command for each as well.

My understanding was that they were backing away from you for a certain distance and then turning around to back towards you- not that they were going around something else at that turn around point....

You will need something like a large cone to teach them to back around an object.

But one step at a time!! Don't start too many new behaviors at one time

No, we will take it very comfortably. Every step as long until it's solid and as long as it is fun for them. I know I'm looking a bit too far down the road, But somehow I always need a view in my mind to see pictorially what might come.

Yes they back away from me and they turn to come backwards between my legs. If If they'd turn on or around the pad forward they would have to make a second turn afterwards to walk again backwards towards me. This would be a good idea too, but complicate the exercise. Though is now stored in my mind as an additional step. In case I'd succeed to get it fluent it would be a cute variation in our dance.

Thanks, Kelly, old dogs and humans like to learn new tricks!