This subject comes up a lot. I certainly am no expert in the training of KNPV dogs but I have tested my share for police work and trained many for police work.
I think there are many reasons for washing the dogs, such as lack of retrieval/play drive, lack of enough drive in either prey or fight and dogs that are too hard to work with due to handler aggression and the flip side those that crumble under a handler correction.
I certainly wouldn't assign a single excersise to their failures.
In fact i have tested several that were poor under a schh style drive and stick hit that had met lof. But most are not bad dogs if they received their certificate. That's the whole purpose of the program.
As to 90% of the helpers breaking sticks on the stick attack???? That's not what I've seen... many misses occur even at the National Ch.
The decoys usually pride themselves in a strong presentation...unyeilding to the dogs and show the dogs temperment well.
What i find most interesting is the fact that virtually all the dogs release and guard cleanly even after the pressure of some of the tests. personally this is more a testiment of the training and quality of the dogs than the stick attack.

Hi Kevin <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Guess I must've seen decoys 'extrodinaire' then lol...but seriously the Champ. I was at about 5 out of about 30 entries completely missed and the rest connected. Most breaking the stick at some point and some hitting the dog hard but whether it was the timing or the angle the stick remained intact.

At the local club level training over the last 3 years the decoys were very accurate and the vast majority of dogs at that level of training were definitely hit. A few misses but those were repeated until the dogs felt the full impact of this exercise.

I definitely would have to question that ratio of 'washouts' though due to one exercise like the stick attack. My own experiences have been that more dogs seemed to have issues with the box retrieve and the small object retrieve, as well as being either too hard or too soft; than with the stick attack. I completely agree that the washouts are due to issues in several areas like those you mentioned.

And you're right; it's incredible to see the outs and guards under stress. Credit certainly goes to their training AND good genetics (for being able to withstand this type of training/program). They definitely train 'hard' once a dog gets to a certain level...Those I spoke with believe (and I can't say I disagree) that if the dogs can take the stress of THEIR training; they should have no issues handling a trial situation. Quite an eye-opener seeing them train.

B <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm not a trainer, just a handler, so this is just my opinion.

But after watching the link (I though courage tests were that but with a firing gun at the dog), I still feel that the dog needs to go through that to see the dog's reaction.

My dog as well as our other PSDs (all are KNPV)have had to go through that several times. We don't do it too often, because serious dog injury can occur. But on the street you KNOW that some subjects are going to fight your dog--hitting, kicking, etc. And it's going to hurt. I don't want my dog releasing his bite or being hesitant.

With my dog, sticks have actually been broken by the decoy when hitting him. He doesn't shy--he gets evil mad and fights harder.

I just feel that the dog needs to experience that--and should be washed out from at least protection/police work if the dog can't handle it. JMO guys! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Hi Erica

Forgive me if I misunderstood you in any way.

The video clip is ONE exercise (stick attack)in a trial. However, these dogs in training for 3 years have had to endure countless such impacts and hits. What you see in a trial is NOT what is behind the scenes or what goes into the TRAINING of a KNPV dog. And it's true. Typically, if the dog can survive their training; the trial isn't a problem.

Many of these dogs have supplementary civil training and different variables thrown into their training--where there is screaming and kicking and fighting on the ground. A good number of these have such hardness and high fight drive that pain only brings them up to another level of drive. Compulsion and pain are not foreign to these dogs. They are very familiar with it.

In fact there have been instances of decoys and dogs being injured and 'carried off'. There have been instances of dogs completing the entire program (on 3 legs) after suffering a broken leg. That says something about the dog.

As far as the gun goes...this is a part of another exercise.