I have a 3yr. old and a 8 month old GSD , they have never been around goats,

I am having some goats delivered next week and was wondering how to "socialize" them,( or is it not possible and I should maybe be asking which is the better of the LGDs to acquire)

I was planning on simple avoidance training with e-collar and hoping that the coyotes wouldnt bother as much with the dog around and not really thinking that they would "bond" and it protect them

This sounds like Ellen's territory.

This is a question I've wondered for awhile. The woman mentioned I think does this with the breed.
Idealy a Anatolian and a few others would be good, but one thing about the Shepherd breeds is it's so easy to teach them new things.

The hardest part about this breed, as well as most of the breeds mentioned on the board is that they have lots of prey drive. A good livestock guardian from what I've read has to have the ability to stand a certain ground and not go after the coyotes, etc. If they do they'll just bait them and get into the herd and lure the dogs into a trap. Which usually leads to their death. There's a book called Dogs by the Copperingers you might want to read, it'll give you an idea of what type of dog needed. I'm sure they can be used, but it will take some looking into.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0...2012313-9323854

In this neck of the woods Sheperds seem to be the most commonly encountered "farm dogs" around. My sister has alaways had Sheperds along with horses,chickens, ducks, cats and an orphan sheep.
She never had any problems with the dogs bothering the livestock(but did end up with a sheep that would chase the schoolbus with the dogs). The dogs do keep the coyotes at bay. My girlfriends sheperd would round up the chickens on command until the day the huskies got loose and "helped". I think if you can get the dogs to respect the goats as your belongings it could work ok. The same dogs that don't bother the livestock are pure hell on gophers,coyotes,foxes and other "vermin". Another girlfriends Tervuren rounded up her poultry in a very professional manner and herded it down into the dogyard where the huskies were kept.....I don't have any real experience with herding dogs but I can tell you that huskies are NOT what you are looking for herders or livestock guardians.

Here is the deal with live stock guardians. If the dogs are older than pups then you will have to see if they can live with the stock without harassing them or eating them. If they can, you then will have to keep the dogs penned up with the stock, but in a small enough area that the dogs will consider it their territory. Then they MIGHT attempt to protect their territory from invading preds. That would depend on the dog. GSDs are very territorial and will very likely ward off any bad guys that try to come over to the farm. The dogs will not have the ability to form a bond with the animals though, so they won't be protecting them, just their territory. They can learn to herd them, but that is different behavior.

Now if you really want a guardian dog, you have to get a pup. That means a dog that will follow the herd of stock and act as 24/7 guardian, anywhere they go- he goes. That pup has to be socialized with the stock from 8wks on, so it will bond with the stock animals. They will become the dog's "pack", so to speak. Only then will the dog work undirected to protect the stock and only then will the dog stay with the stock in large enclosures or free ranges. He will naturally move with his pack and protect them. The dog's chief exposure has to be with the animals, not humans. That is the only way to train a true live stock protection dog. The critical socialization period is 6wks to 16wksish.

Having done that with your dog, then you can consider specific breed traits that will make for the best guardians. Size, defensive and territorial aggression, general nature and behavior, etc. In most respects almost any type of dog can be trained to do this work, IF during the socialization period they were exposed to the stock as their "pack". You of course will have more natural ability in dogs that were specifically bred to do this work.

Mr. VanCamp you are wise beyond your years my friend. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

thanks, ya i figured they wouldnt bond being the age they are, but they are already territorial over the acreage the goats will be placed on.

how about avoidance training to teach the dogs to leave the goats alone?

I have heard this is best done with e-collar ie. dog chases goat, dog gets zapped... anybody familiar with how to do this incrementally

As a kennel master at Sembach AB, Germany. I was befriended by the local shepherd that grazed his sheep on the grass between our runways. We had some very interesting discussions. His dogs, all GSD's. had specific jobs. Momma dog, and the boss, stayed with Herr Schmitts. the other 3 tended to the flock, providing both protection and direction of movement. Momma only left the shepherds side, when she was sent. She was also the cause of one of my most embarrassing moments as a dog trainer, but that is another story. In coversations with Herr Schmitts, he told me that for shepherding, the pups were indeed raised with the flock, and for the most part, trained by the already working dogs that were with the flock. Momma dog did most of the corrections, which I found very interesting. Anyway, they are a joy to watch.

DFrost