I would appreciate opinions or insight on the following. I have a two year old rottie training towards IPO1. Generally he has made good progress in all areas of his training, tracking, control work and the protection phase routine. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> My biggest problem at this point is the dog committing to the bite. On a pillow the bite is fair when worked on a short tight lead. However on a long bite, although he goes in with no hesitation, into the scenario, he bumps the sleeve, nibbles here, nibbles there........and wont kinda, whack! take the bite. :rolleyes: Now the dog is worked in prey, which he has a lot of, he seems to have a fairly high threshold for defense and therefore is very seldom active within this drive, due to the type of training. Although the few times that he has been switched, unintentionally, he seems to have fair depth in that he "holds" himself in this drive with no tendencies of flight, wide stance, backwards movement etc. Once he decides to take a bite, it is full, hard with the dog countering into the cushion when prompted. The same scenario persists when worked with a sleeve, with a difference in that he tends to counter into the elbow section. Now a large portion of what I described is probably related to the dogs genetics, this "behavior" has been evident since day one. He is mostly worked on a tight line, trying to create as little room for "error" as possible, with the concept of you get one chance to bite and thus imprinting the desired "behavior" and correct association. This is done in conjunction with frustration. On the short line it works but as I said once there is a little ground between the helper and dog the problem persists. It's almost as if the dog is out there doing what he wants, taking the bite when he feels like it and it's convenient for him. I know this is a problem with many Rotties and he probably has some issues with the helper therefore the weak bite. Although prey is said to be directly proportional to commitment maybe the dog's nerve type brings about this behavior? Any insight is greatly appreciated.

Q. Strooh

My first reaction is avoidance to the bite. Bumping the sleeve is a form of avoidance. How would I work this? Start small and progress. Keep the lead on and make the dog go out for a bite. Work your way to off lead. I wish I could be of more help but without seeing the dog it is so hard. Guys can you help out more????

Thanks for your reply Vince. I have tried tackling this issue from all possible angles, from the helper being as passive as possible to try create some sort of comfort zone for the dog, encouraging a more commited bite, frustrating and like I posted earlier working the dog as strict as possible with a tight line only providing minimal opportunities to bite, thus encouraging him to make the best of the opportunities provided. Like you said the dog has issues and it's just a matter of working through that. Just out of interest? What if you go the opposite route where pressure is applied and the bite serves as a "relief station"? With the concept of the quicker and harder I bite, the less stress? Maybe tickling the defense a little and then channeling it back into prey. Will this discourage the dog to then go out for a bite. I dunno just wondering?

Q.

That is your last resort. Only after you try everything else do you go that route. If you are faced with that approach you must evaluate if it is worth it. If the dog by them will not bite then maybe it just was not meant to be with that dog. Why force it to do something that it is not able to do. How old is the dog?

Q.

Depending on how long you have been working the dog this may be a natural reaction. Often the tension on the leash becomes a method for the dog to identify where you are. This can be corrected by having him pull out on a tighter leash. If he is strong enough you may want gloves to do this. You may have to use a long line for this. Once the dog is working out farther decrease the tension on the leash and use less pressure on it as he goes out. At this point you can also get him in drive and just let go before he notices he is working loose.

This is probably an experience issue. He knows its ok close, but what about out farther? I am with Vince I would use pressure as a last resort and if you do switch back to prey as soon as he starts to bite. Work back into working the prey aspects until he is comfortable working at a distance from you before working in defense proper.

Once again thanks for the replies. Vince, he is just over two now. Should a dog show this type of disposition at this age and further require such a "soft approach" initially regarding his training in order to accomplish the desired working traits, will the dog not fall apart later on in a trial for instances should he be worked by a really hard helper exerting a lot of pressure during the various exercises? What I am trying to asses is can such a dog through correct training, confidence building and by constant positive associations and "desensitizing" the dog to pressure situations, at the correct stage, still develop into a good dog? I know various dogs struggle in trials with new helpers, grounds etc. But are there dogs out there that start off with training, where you think omigosh, yet develop into good "finished products"? Or must all the desirable traits be evident at a young age. I know this is a very vague question.

Yes I have seen dogs that will not come close to the helper in the blind do to abuse by the whip and we get them to do a nice bark and hold. But for the most part if you are spending more time getting a dog do what should be natural for most working dogs than when the pressures on he will fold. Only your TD, your helper and yourself can make that determination.