Hi all, I'm new to the board, but I was told all the experts hang out here, so if you can help, much appreciated!

I have a 7 month old GSD. He's a mix of Chzec and Shiloh lines on the mothers side and all german working on the fathers. Lots of Schutzhund II and III and a few FH titles in his history. Should be bred for biting that toy, right?

I got him at 6 months old and started training with him, but his drive is driving me bonkers. On the training field, with someone else teasing him with a bite toy on a leash, he barks and goes after it like I'd expect (doesn't hold it yet, but I guess that will come).

When I get him home, and either me or the girlfriend try to tease him with the toy while hes backtied or the other one of us holds him, he lays down and looks at us like we're nuts.

Our trainer suggested backtying, tease for a few seconds, then go out of sight for a minute or two. Rinse, lather, repeat. I'm wondering if anyone has any more suggestions? I'm having no luck. He's somewhat shy and the trainer thinks he may be feeling like I'm reprimanding/overpowering him (I'm a big guy, maybe I scare him?) but we don't get why my gf (much smaller) has the same results..

Anyway, I'm ordering the video asap, but I'd love some insight from the experts here.

Thanks!

When he's back-tied with someone else agitating, what type of barking is it? Prey or defense? Also, you say he goes after the item. Does he try to bite it or just pounce on it?

Have you tried finding a different prey item for you and your girlfriend to use that may evoke a better response?

I think its prey barking. He barks at it till he gets it. Going after it is kind of a mix between pouncing (if its on the ground) or grabbing (if its in the air).

I'm not aware of other prey items other than a jute bite toy? If you mean like a ball, he chases a ball on a leash to no end, but thats definately play-pouncing.

I forgot to mention, he does go after the toy with me (sometimes, maybe 40% of the time) if hes not backtied or otherwise leashed. Same goes for the ball.

Am I doing something wrong? Scaring him or being too overbearing? If so, how do I fix that? I try to make sure I don't get too rough on him, but I can't seem to tell with him when hes in drive and when hes not, and when I push him too hard -- all this was so much easier with my other shepherd <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

The Flinks video for building drive considers back-tieing an advanced step and starts drive building with the dog on a short leash. If he'll go for it when he's not on a back-tie then I would stick with that.

If you are positive he's in prey drive then it sounds like he just needs to learn to bite his prey. The Flinks method does it by letting him chase it and pounce on it then snatching it away if he won't bite it to build frustration until he'll bite it. I don't think I can adequately explain all of the nuances to train it so you'll have to wait till you get the video unless someone else wants to take a stab at it.

It is likely that this dog doesn't have the genetics for the training. You say he is German working lines on one side. Are you sure about that? Shiloh lines are not bred for drive, but rather size. A dog at six months that is not holding the prey object is not likely to later on IMO. Can you provide some information on your dog's pedigree?

Hi,

This can be hard to explain without seeing or knowing everything that is going on. I would get the video "Drive, Focus, and Grip" and also "Preparing your dog for the helper". The video explains in detail on what to do and common mistakes that are made. If your pup has good Prey Drive on the field, but then not at home, it could be because of the way he is housed.....in other words if the pup is not fresh out of the kennel when you go to work him at home, then mabey he has no real desire to play tug if he's already tired, or just went for a walk, or just played with you, or what ever the reason may be. In my opinion, you should not back tie him anymore and just build his drive; play tug games with him but not so long that he gets totally tired......just a couple minutes. You can bring him into your arms and build the bond, you can teach him how to hold and carry, and basically teach him everything yourself while building a good bond between you and your pup. Hope this helps.

How much obedience have you put on this pup??

How long are your sessions ?

Will your pup work on a leash better then on the back-Tie?

Has anyone else worked your pup when on the back-Tie? If so how did the pup react?

I never work the PERY item in the air, always keeping it on the ground. Young pups jumping up to grab the prey could cause future damage to their legs. Especially the rear!!

Just something to think about!! Stop using the toy and find a piece of leather(like a sleeve from a leather shirt or Jacket) attach the leather piece to a buggy whip. This will be more action and movement.

If your pup is losing interest in the prey item it should win the prey more often. Others may disagree but I had a similar problem and allowing the pup to win more in the begining worked for me.

One last thing. Keep all training sesions short, 2 to 3 minutes is a long time. I would start at no more then 2 minutes and build up from their.

Let us know how you and your pup progress.

Wow, you guys responded faster than I expected! Let me try and answer everyone at once.

As far as his genetics, both his parents are Sch II titled, and yes, I'm positive about his lines. Keep in mind that his breeder did no drive work and I didn't get him till 6 months, so I've only been working him for a month or so.

As for obedience, we've done alot for the amount of time. Weve gone from nothing to sit, down, heel, and long down. He's very food motivated (hot dog and beef jerky) and works great if those are in my hand. Not so great if they arent.

He does go after the prey on-leash, but only for someone other than myself or the gf. Same goes for back-tie. As long as neither of us is doing the agitating, he comes out pretty well.

 Quote:

Originally posted by Henry Zektser:

As far as his genetics, both his parents are Sch II titled, and yes, I'm positive about his lines.

Uhh...Sch II in both parents does not necessarily mean a darned thing about his lines....and what "lines" does he have? Czech and Shiloh are not lines but general type of dogs, Czech being GSDs and Shilohs being, ah, well, not GSDs anymore.

German working or german show -- both get schuthund titles -- both very different dogs. perhaps you could post his pedigree?

Also as said earlier Shilohs are bred to be big couch potatoes so what is behind him is what is behind him. You are sure of Shiloh in him, as he could not be registered as a GSD then.

That does not mean there is no drive there nor that you can't bring it out .... but I would not assume it is there because of any genetics, that is all.

I will scan and post pedigrees, but hes not registered shiloh, hes registered as a GSD, and the names in his pedigree that I have researched are german working lines. At least thats their description. I'm not a pedigree expert by any means, but I will post pedigrees for the experts here to peek at.

Just as an update, I had him off-leash today outside (Someplace hes never been before). I had a ball on a rope on one side of the leash and the bite toy on the other. I alternated teasing him with one and the other.

He chased both! He played tug with the ball, hard enough that I could lift his front paws off the ground (biting the rope though, eventually re-biting to the ball and loosing it, I think the ball is too big). He chased the bite toy and picked it up, but had no grip on it. He played a little tug with that too, but only holding it where the leash was attached, not the toy itself.

Any thoughts?