This post is a continuation of the line of thought on the Flinks/Itor thread:
A few weekends ago I went to my first Sch. club. Sevveral members have been national level competitors for years, and one guy there is a breeder whose dogs compete at the national level, including his own. This breeder, along with several club members, proudly stated that their dogs were incredibly tough, and the breeder said his dogs were from the hardest and toughest bloodlines in the world. In fact, it was said that this breeder repeatedly tests his puppies from a young age to determine if they have this toughness and hardness, and if not, he throws them out of his "program". I watched him work, jerking the prong several times in a row very hard, yelling the same command two, three four times in a row, shocking the dog with the electric collar. The dog, needless to say, did not have a happy and enthusiastic demeanor. My trainer wanted to go to this club because he had heard it was the best inthe area, and he needs a helper for bitework because his got sick a few months ago. We watched the club memebers do their bite work, with the helper hitting the dogs hard with the leather stick, kicking the dogs repeatedly, and amazingly (in my opinion) whipping the dogs. Actually, a guy had a dog from that breeder there, a six month GSD, and the breeder had him heel the dog around the field, all the while whipping the dog. He explained that only a tough dog could tolerate this, and his dogs were the toughest. When it came time for my trainer to go to my car and get his dog out, the club members conferred with the helper while my trainer got his dog. When the dog was on the sleeve, the helper hit the dog so HARD with the leather stick you could hear the CRACK from far away, then he kicked him with the toe of his boot harder than Pele would kick a ball in a World Cup final. Right at the bottom of the rib cage. This just made the dog bite harder. After several more hits with the stick, they were done. All the club members wanted to know where this dog came from, and remarked on how tough he was. We left the field to the tune of the breeder jerking his dog's prong repeatedly, while yelling the same command several times in a row. My trainer said we'll never go back there again. Are most Sch. clubs like this? Is it necessary to pressure a dog that much in training for a trial? If the dog gets used to that much pain and pressure in training, will he really view the helper at a trial as a wimp?

Well being nieve as I am, I would say no.. not all clubs are like this, you would do well to stay away from a club such as this, sounds like they are training junk yard dogs to me.

Toughness, that's crap, true toughness comes from the heart and temperment of a dog, not pain conditioning, if his dogs were so tough they would not need "Pain" training. Your trainers dog is a perfect example, I'm going to assume his dog did not go through this type of training and he bit harder when subjected to it... that's tough.

People get into this sport for a lot of different reasons, and you've found the faction that's in it cuz it's "macho". They're recognizeable cuz they drip testosterone! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Nope, not all clubs or trainers are like that, not by a long shot, to include at the national level. That said, I have found that newcomers often find even moderate, "typical" levels of aggression from the helper to be "excessive", i.e., using the whip mortifies most folks at first, but if you watch the dog, you notice it doesn't bother him a fraction as much as it bothers the newcomers.

Hello. If what you say is true (I am not doubting your credibility) then you should report this in writting to the Parent club. This is not dog training, this is abuse, and stupididty. I would like to know who this top guy is to steer clear of him. While pressure is needed at some stages of the game, this is just, well it blows me away to find this at a schutzhund club. THis sounds like a trainer that you would find in Miami selling "killer dogs". No doubt if your dog withstood that, I guess he is not a chicken!
Um really all jokes aside this needs to be looked into. Anyone that publicly does this is a bad image for the sport, and people like this make everyone look bad, and only fuel PETA people.

To Michael Taylor:
Actually, it was my trainer's dog, not mine. I brought my dog and left him in the car. He is a rott from a rescue group. My trainer is very experienced and said after numerous tests that he could get a sch.1, just don't look to win or get super high points, just have fun.....If I brought him out to that helper at that club, he would never do bitework again. As far as reporting them, I really didn't think about that. There were two police officers there with their PSDs, and not all the dogs were treated this way. I was just highlighting the worst.

Unforunatialy, people like that will never see good training, even if they watched a tape, they already know it all.

Not to add fuel to the fire...but what the hell.

There are always two sides to every story. I have seen a dog kicked...I am not by any means defending anyone. However, I would like to hear the reasoning behind what was going on.

I have a dog that has only been in defense one time. Everything is a game. He is not locked in prey, he just has fun. One helper, I used repeatedly whipped him across the front legs, all the while my dog play bowed and had a high pitch bark. The way we got through to him was I cinched up the leash real tight, pulled him all the way to me. A different helper picked him up by the tail and whipped UNDER his body(not him the air underneath) drop the tail came out front and it was a whole different game. Now anyone 'new' who would have been there would have probably left. However, my dog is fine, and I am fine.

Also, if your trainer was so appalled by what he had seen(as evidence by him not wanting to go back), why did he take the dog out of the car in the first place?

Now, if it is exactly like you say, and these where just people showing off, I think we can get a group together and show them how to use the whip correctly...LOL
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Anyone that whips a 6 month old pup, needs to have there head examined. Like I said if what this guy says is true, well I really don't think that these people should be representing the parent club, that is not my choice to make though. I think that if this is a schutzhund club then it should be looked into. Maybe it is a mis-understanding, as many have stated new people do not understand the whip and the sticks etc. But if it is true, this won't score any brownie points for our sport if there should be another Rott. attack that happenend a while ago. I believe these dogs had some claim to being schutzhund trained. In the end I think they were not but could of you seen the juryies faces if someone showed a video of these guys training; if it is as described. At any cost they did not leave a good impression on a new comer.

Yes, I considered this carefully before I posted: I am new and what I think is being tough on a dog is an experienced person's mild. BUT, my trainer thought that the club was especially tough on his dog to "test" him out; some of the members knew him or knew of him and from what I saw, it appeared that their egos felt a bit threatened by having a very experienced trainer coming to their club....as if he was going to show them up or some crap like that. I know my description was graphically vivid....I wish i had taped it because 1) the written word is always more dramatic and powerful and 2) i had never been to a club before. All i have seen is my trainer and ed's training tapes. My purpose of the original post was to question whether a schutzhund competitor NEEDS to "toughen"a dog up like this, and if the top dogs in the sport are extremely tough. My questions have been answered in a very professional, concerned and even mentor-ly in my opinion. You can tell just by the style of the writing of some of the posts, especially Kevin Stendahl's,of the depth of knowledge and experience of some of the people on this board. I feel like i should pay for this info! thanks all...

I am closing this thread. Kevin posted a new thread which addresses all of these issues.