Matthew Grubb Webboard User Reg: 09-27-2002
Posts: 637
Loc: Pittsburgh, Pa.
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While watching a PSD training session this weekend I saw an odd behavior on the part of the dog which I beleve to be the result of frustration and a bad decoy. The dog was tied out and the attempt was being made to eliminate some mild typewriter biting. I watched the decoy realy rev the dog up but when he should have given the dog the bite (in my opinion) he delayed and the dog turned and bit the line then turned his attention back to the decoy. I watched this happen about three more times and aproached the decoy during a break. In a nice way I told him that I beleved the dog biting the line was a display of frustration and that he was reinforcing a bad behavior by "over revving" the dog. Of course he took offense to this. What do you think??
Biting the line is due to frustration, but the only way it would be rewarding the behavior is if the helper gave a bite afterwards, or release the pressure. Once the behavior occurs a helper can not reward the unwanted behavior just for the sake of stoping the behavior.
We want to build frustration in a dog. The ideal is that the dog will channel that into a correct behavior, a full clam grip. With out being there it is hard to say exactly what is goig on with the dog or make an opinion about the helper's work. Sometimes the correct thing to do is not to give the dog a bite.
Maybe next time the helper lowers the level of stimulation, hoping the dog will offer the correct behavior. Maybe he raises the level. But he is the one doing the helper work. He can only do what he sees to be done from his eyes. The bottom line is that with some dogs just don't have what it takes, and look to avoid the helper in any manner of ways. Suggestions are one thing, criticisms are something else.
Humankind is drawn to dogs because they are so like ourselves- bumbling, affectionate, confused, eaily disappointed, eager to be amused, grateful for kindness and the least attention Pam Brown
To me solution would be for the helper to either give a bite before this frustration is built up and let him win quickly. Or the handler to shorten the line and give verbal encouragement.
I think sometimes we forget that the handler should do more then just hold on to the leash or post the dog up and watch. Standing beside the dog while he is tie out and offering encounragement can help tell the dog what you want, sometimes that all the dogs need to channel his frustration is this.
Now it could be a case of just not having the right stuff, if this is not a young or green dog.
Matthew Grubb Webboard User Reg: 09-27-2002
Posts: 637
Loc: Pittsburgh, Pa.
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This was a titled dog approximatly 2.5 years with great drives and ability. The handler was providing plenty of encouragement during the excercise. Soon after the dog turned it's head and bit the line he was given the bite. (10-15 seconds)
You mentioned that the dog is titled, was it a BH, SchH III or IPO? Some sport dogs have the neccessary prey drive to do sport type bite work.
But they don't have the drive to go the next stage, prey/play drive is all they have. You drop the sleeve and they won't alert back on the man. They have no defense or combat drive.
So in most cases a titled dog can be placed on the street in a couple of weeks or a month, after learning patrol work. In other cases though the dog is titled he can't make the cut.
10 -15 seconds is a long time, anything passe 3 seconds and the dog will not relate that behavoir to any reward.
"Mild-typewriter biting" was the original issue. The helper had a plan to tie the dog out to solve this problem, and then another hetic behavior occured. Your opinion is that the problem is caused by "Over Revving". Maybe it is, maybe not.
My point is that of course the Helper would take offense to criticism. Instead of offering an criticism, offer a suggestion. You are watching the dog. What do you think would clam the dog down in his grip? Personaly I think it's a waste of time to work on the grip of a 2.5 year titled dog. That is foundation work that should have been addressed long ago, now this dog has already built up a tendency that he will revert back to in the heat of battle. But if that is the goal to improve the clamness, offer a suggestion to reach that goal. Pointing what didn't work will not help anything.
Humankind is drawn to dogs because they are so like ourselves- bumbling, affectionate, confused, eaily disappointed, eager to be amused, grateful for kindness and the least attention Pam Brown
Police budgets being what it is most of the time, you have to make due, with the talent you have. Most depts. will backup and retrain a canidate rather then trash them. I even know departments that take K9 donations from the public. So just because the dogs 2.5 yrs. old doesn't mean he can't be saved and it could be just the difference in dual purpose and single purpose.
I do agree a 2.5 yr. old patrol dog should have his basic bite work done. But it could just be he needs some brushing up. Department budget sometimes dictate the making of the logical decision. For the particle. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
I didn't mean that it is a waste of time to train the dog at all. I meant that 2 1/2 year old dog that is already titled has already established it's tendancies in his grip. I would continue to work the grip, but I wouldn't go through the effort and attempt to make the grip something it's not. If the dog is still hetic at 2 1/2 after the amount of work it takes to title a dog there isn't much chance of creating a clam grip now. Go on to other aspects in the training.
I never meant that the dog should be washed out.
Humankind is drawn to dogs because they are so like ourselves- bumbling, affectionate, confused, eaily disappointed, eager to be amused, grateful for kindness and the least attention Pam Brown
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