Good suggestion from Ron for you to do as much tug "prey" play as possible right now. Many helpers seem to believe that they must move their arms or bodies a lot during such prey building, when it is in fact the prey item that should be in motion while the helper remains as still as possible (obviously he will not be able to stand completely still) It appears to me that the dog, for whatever reason, is viewing the helper as a threat rather than a play partner...which is what you want in these early stages, for a sport dog especially.

Lines attached to the tug can help as can lots of quick, jerky movement in the item, (if the helper moves too much, he focuses the dog upon himself and not the item) but sometimes you will find a dog just seems to view a particular helper in a more threatening light than another. This may be due to physical size, or to "vibes" the helper may be putting off toward the dog, even though he is not aware of doing so. Maybe try another helper...if possible, a smaller male or even a female, have them make no...that is zero...direct eye contact with the dog, and get as low to the ground as possible...even laying down if necessary.

Maybe some of this will help.

Vancamp, not all defense is triggered from fear. If someone was to walk up & hit me for no reason, of coarse I'm going to defend myself. I'm not afraid, but I'm still going to fight. Now let's say the same person then pulls out a knife, now I'm a little afraid, but I've been trained for this kind of scenario so I'm going to defense myself. So it all depends on how much heat a helper puts on a dog to instill fear. But if he knows he WILL WIN the fight, there's no reason for him to be afraid. Maybe this only applys to a handful of dogs and skilled fighters, but it's still there. Anyway, the comment about my dog was way off the subject.

Mike,

By definition of the term: Defense involves fear. That is the way the term is used here. It becomes a significant issue when people are trying to use terms and using different definitions for the same term.

In some dogs there are different stimuli that ilicit the similar reactions. This is one reason that there can be significant differences in training different breeds. For instance I have been working Giants for years, and now work with a Black Russian Terrier. They both train with some significant differences in working compared with a GSD or Mal. The breed that provides the biggest difference is the BRT. In prey drive the BRt will not chase down a fleeing helper. She will just let him go. If he turns and charges the dog she will react instantly. The basic courage test is no problem for her, she loves it. Attack me she instantly reacts. The behavior seems different but is the same.

Dogs react to stimuli based on the training they recieve. A dog that is working from fight or prey has no fear of the stimuli it is reacting to. A dog in defense (as the term is used here) is by definition afraid. What looks like a stimulus designed to ilicit fear in a dog may not create that reaction in a particular dog or breed.

The descriptions for modifying the behaviors a described will create the "picture" that you want. Based on your description I would not say this dog is working in defense, but is tending more towards fight. The dog is not fixated on the equipment, but is acting against the agitator. The shaking and growling you describe would more likely be attributed to frustration rather than fear.

A few more things about my GSD. First off he has intense prey drive when at home. He constantly places tug, with either myself or other family members as well as visitors. Another point is that there was a time when he was taunted by kids next door that would kick the fence , stair at him, and scream and run away when he barked at them (4-6 year olds). Parents would do nothing about this but just grin. We have since moved and we no longer have that problem. The helper thinks this may be why he is the way he is now. The gsd is also a very dominant male and I have had rank problems with him in the past (though we seem to have resolved them now). To my novice eyes it would appear that he wants to fight with the helper. there is nothing to stop him from backing up behind me, and the line is as tight as it can get with him pulling forward as hard as he can. the helper getting closer intensified his urge to get closer to the helper. the helper states the gsd stares him directly into the eyes. could it also be that the gsd sees the helper as a threath to me and reacts accordingly.
next training is in the am unless cancelled. we will see if we can make some progress

was fortunate to attend a flinks seminar a couple of years ago. bernhard gave a terrific demonstration of decoy/helper working a dog in prey drive as opposed to defense. it occured to me that a dog could easily be confused by the helper so i asked to see it again. all watching agreed that they had often seen a helper giving the dog mixed signals, so when they may have intended to work the dog in prey they actually ended up asking the dog for defense. so, if after the session has ended, you hear unfavorable remarks about your dog's drives, evaluate your dog's response based on what the helper was "asking" of the dog.

Your helper is right; your dog is showing the classic: I can kill the mailman because I always have. Your dog has the prey drive like I thought and like I said from puppy to now he has been affected by his experiences.

The neighbors kids were at first pushing his nerves into defense mode based on fear. He reacted to this fear by barking. At some point the kids became tired or really scared themselves and left the area. Your dog sees this as a huge WIN and one way to eliminate the threat. Over time and as he become sexually mature he starts to consider not only does he win but has never been hurt by a threat. Since he has the gonads for self-protection, territorial defense and now a willingness to fight especially with his owner on the back line. Reconditioning can only begin when you find a way to make an opposing figure such as the helper be a playtime friend.

Again, you could spend many, many hours getting the dog to work in only prey eventfully (allowing you don’t trigger his defensive drive that locks in his fight drive) only to later understand that once your dog is pressed, as required on the field as the dog advances, he will revert back to his temperament.

If your dog was not calm on the sleeve and my guess is he is calm and even carries the sleeve fine if the helper slips it and you trot, then your dog will not be Fluffy come here for a pat and play by the helper. I know it makes a nice demonstration to the pubic not familiar with schutzhund but your dog is not the PR or PC kind.

 Quote:

Originally posted by Dennis Hasley:
...you could spend many, many hours getting the dog to work in only prey eventfully (allowing you don’t trigger his defensive drive that locks in his fight drive) only to later understand that once your dog is pressed, as required on the field as the dog advances, he will revert back to his temperament.

If your dog was not calm on the sleeve and my guess is he is calm ...

No one would suggest he train such a dog in "only prey", since he steps on the field already in defense. Some prey monsters with strong nerves can easily train the entire routines relying on prey, but obviously this dog isn't one of them. His threshold for defense is so low that simple proximity to the helper kicks it in. The goal should be to raise the dog's threshold so that he doesn't stimulate so easily into defense and so that the behaviors that are detrimental to the sport are eliminated.

"The bite was followed by a violent shaking, tugging as hard as he could, and at the same time growling."

This isn't calm behavior, and often times it is not secure behavior either. The fact that the dog bites extremely hard and full may not say anything about the dog's emotions, due to the way the breeding for that "genetic grip" has produced a lot of dogs with absolutely flawless gripping even when scared half to death. We've got one in our club with terribly thin nerves, but his grips, regardless of how scared he is, are to die for. When it's hardwired into them, it no longer is a valid indicator of the dog's state of mind.

Phil are you trying to title this dog, or are you just having some fun at the local Schutzhund club?


Dennis wrote: "If your dog was not calm on the sleeve and my guess is he is calm and even carries the sleeve fine if the helper slips it and you trot, then your dog will not be Fluffy come here for a pat and play by the helper. I know it makes a nice demonstration to the pubic not familiar with schutzhund but your dog is not the PR or PC kind."


I'm pretty sure it is safe to say it will be a cold day in hell when someone gets this type of dog to a point where it could work all in prey.


BTW Dennis, what did you mean my "prey eventfully". I didn't quite get that part bro?

OOPS! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

 Quote:

Originally posted by Dennis Hasley:
So I think the real goal should be not to get the dog to work in only prey drive but to use his prey drive to lower the thresholds of defense. Most people who study behavior recognize gradual habituation techniques are an effective tool to do this.

Should read: So I think the real goal should be not to get the dog to work in only prey drive but to use his prey drive to INCREASE the thresholds of defense. Most people who study behavior recognize gradual habituation techniques are an effective tool to do this.

Time for some sleep...I hear it is good. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />