Whatever the reason the dogs were used as human grenades we will never know. The thing is it doesn't matter, Israel is it's own state and as long as they complied with the Geneva convention there isn't a damn thing anyone could or can do about it. I personally think there are far better ways to deploy ordinance than to strap it to a living thing and send it in to blow it self up, I think that sucks.

Originally posted by VanCamp:
No joke, this thread is stupid. Classic VanCamp.LOL

ya know i so seldom post - but give me a sec while i climb up on the soap box - there - eh hem..
brendan last time i looked our "soft headed american way of thinking" wasn't doing too bad...
lets see

1 very sad serious breach of our national security system - which i witnessed
vs.
- daily suicide bombings
- genocide/ethnic cleansing
-public executions for things like adultery
- private executions for differences of opinion

we had an 8yr old (not sure of his age) patient come back with a group of some u.s. surgeons - they arranged for him to come to the states for needed surgery and because he had no family - his family was hacked to death in front of him - this was in a very torn area of africa.

my soft headed american way of thinking would be when in combat to use something less primitive and quite a bit more deadly - not that the use of dogs in combat is primitive, on the contrary i'm sure it is quite complex to prepare dogs for combat situations - but strapping explosives to their backs is somewhat wastful and simple minded especially with the technology we have today - chemicals etc. - heck c4 is not selective is it? so why send it in on a dog - go for the gusto

just my soft headed american opinion
c mac

Im only responding to this because it was personaly addressed to me. Sure americans are wonderfully generous kind people and american society is a good place to live. I lived in North carolina as a kid for several years, I have american relatives. No arguement from me on that one.
I was simply stating that many people living in western countries are insulated from some the harsher realities of life. Such as people die in wars and so do animals. Its my belief that the failure of american politicians to accept that premise and act accordingly prompted Sept. 11. When carter failed to attack Iran during the hopstage crisis what conclusion do you think the Iranians drew from that? ditto when reagan withdrew the marines after the bombing in beirut and clinton after mogadishu. The enemies of the US concluded that no matter what they did the US would just run away when the going got a bit tough. Eventually they bought the war to the USs front door and there was no where for you to run anymore.
The israelis have felt they've had their backs against the wall for 50 odd years. Sure there are more sophisticated ways or destroying fortifications than bomb laden dogs. For extremely rich countries like the US that is whose militairy has basically a blank cheque.

It is not like that in Israel which is a poor country where many people live below the poverty line .
As it transpires the dogs werent very good at being suicide bombers. But even if they saved even one soldier from injury or death I believe it is ethically permisable to use them in this role. The american marines who went ashore in places like Saipan,Iwo Jima and Tarawa would of understood this perfectly. The only people who dont understand this are those who have never been shot at and been shit scared or even had a good punch in the head or kick in the guts and spend most of their time sipping chardonay and watching seinfeld re runs.

DFrost, thanks for an insightful, intelligent and well written post. And more importantly, thanks for risking your life in your service to our country. As you know, over 50,000 didn't come home from that war and another half-million were injured, with many of them permanently maimed. Words can't express my appreciation for the risks and sacrifices made by you and others like you.
Thank you.

P.S. Speaking of the vietnam was dogs and their handlers, one way I have supported their memoralization is to purchase their excellent video entitled "War Dogs". As well, I've purchased some other memorabilia and made a donation to their memorial in Ft. Benning, Georgia. I'm proud to support their memory. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm gonna throw in this post only to try clear up some misconceptions re: Israel and its military dogs.

Brendan said:

 Quote:

Sure there are more sophisticated ways or destroying fortifications than bomb laden dogs. For extremely rich countries like the US that is whose militairy has basically a blank cheque.

It is not like that in Israel which is a poor country where many people live below the poverty line.

Sorry Brendan but you're mistaken. I'm Israeli so I can't let this comment slide (for my national pride if anything else <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> )...

Israel's GDP per capita is 31st in the world, ahead of New Zealand, Spain, etc.

Israel is the 4th largest military power in the world. Thanks to the US we've got most of the weapons the US military has (F16's, Apaches, BMD systems, etc.) albeit in far fewer numbers.

Brendan said:

 Quote:

As it transpires the dogs werent very good at being suicide bombers. But even if they saved even one soldier from injury or death I believe it is ethically permisable to use them in this role.

Bingo. That entire operation was just an attempt at avoiding Israeli casualties but it failed. As far as I know the Israeli military has not used its dogs in any such role since (and thankfully so).

During that operation those particular terrorists were hiding out in deep caves much like some of the Taliban were hiding out in Afghanistan. Israel couldn't bomb them out like the US did without substantially damaging surrounding farm land (bear in mind Israel is roughly the size of New Jersey). Sending in troops was a last resort so the dogs were used beforehand.

End of story.

The following stats are from the CIA factbook. <a href="bookhttp://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/<br" target="_blank">bookhttp://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/<br</a> />
The United States has a per capita income of $36,000. The bottom 10% of its population exist on 1.8% of its wealth. 12.7% of its population live below the poverty line.

Israel has a per capita income $18,900. The bottom 10% of its population exist on 2.8% of its wealth. Percentage of population living below the poverty line isnt listed. Do the math for yourself.

Ive been to Israel three times and have many friends there. Life is economically tough there and there simply isnt the material wealth that you see in the United States.

(Dont debase yourself by comparing yourselves to those Kiwis)

I knew I was gonna get flak for those Kiwis <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Anybody gonna stick up for Spain? :rolleyes:

Brendan your previous post implied that Israel couldn't afford any military alternatives and you bluntly stated that Israel is a "poor country". It's those two comments that I wanted to address as they were both misleading in the context of that military dog operation.

Brendan said:

 Quote:

Ive been to Israel three times and have many friends there. Life is economically tough there and there simply isnt the material wealth that you see in the United States.

I've lived there for years and I'll agree life is way economically tougher than the US or Canada. You won't see too many Navigators parked in driveways if that's the kind of material wealth you're talking about.

Enough said. Let's keep this thread on the dogs, ok? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I agree, Keep it on Dogs... If there is one thing I have learned about Avi, it's when he speaks, he for sure knows what he is speaking about... good enough for me!

BTW, How's your arm Avi? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />