Hi,
I am a new member of this board. I have read a lot of the postings. I would like to state my thoughts and experiences. This is not a criticism of anyone or their opinions.

It would seem that for some time in America and Europe that Sporting Dogs and Sporting Techniques have migrated into the working world. I have no problem with sport, as long as it is recognized as such.

The number of "drives" attributed to dogs in today's world staggers me. It seems that the straightforward relationship between man and dog that existed in the past is disappearing. I have owned dogs all of my life. My grandfather was a breeder for over 50 years. I currently own a female Geman Shepherd's Dog. I have owned German Shepherd's Dogs and Malinois in the past, as well as Terriers, hounds, and beagles.

All the terminology about drives seems very unnecessary to me. I believe a dog is a thinking animal. (Unless they have been bred hyper) They are either serious or not. I am very concerned when I read about dogs that are going to be service dogs being trained using a ball or a kong. I recently had a dog that was a retired service dog deployed against me. He did not mutiple target against me. He held onto my bite coat sleeve with a full mouth grip. If I was a criminal or enemy, I could have beat this dog to death using a weapon in my free hand. He did not go for the weaponed hand. I believe this dog could be called "sleeve crazy" for lack of a better term. The natural bite of using the canines, sinking them deep, releasing, retargeting another part of the body was missing. That is how a dog naturally fights using his canines. In this manner he can avoid blows and very quickly bite stomach, crotch, legs, etc. In a natural form a dog will bleed you out very quickly. He will try to turn you and avoid blows aimed at him. The only explanation I can give for the bite and hold of the retired service dog is that he was trained to use this full mouth grip and to hold on. This goes against all that is natural in a dog. I could have killed this dog with a wrench in my hand. In addition, this dog was trained using a ball or kong. This dog was easily distracted from a target when the helper threw a kong to the side as the dog was closing in on him. The dog went after the kong. I believe the dog was not serious. This "prey" drive as some call it, appears to be an advanced form of play. If the dog was serious, it would have ignored the kong. If I had hit the dog with a wrench while it was holding onto my arm, I firmly believe it would have become serious. At that time it would choose fight or flight. This is natural defense to a dog. Fighting naturally would be to avoid blows and bite with canine, releasing to open the wound, then re-targeting me elsewhere, to bleed me out quickly.

My experience to date shows me in some ways dog training is far removed from the past. An example would be the working/military dogs of Europe. There was a time when dogs were worked in natural form. Communication was essential. There was no ball reward or shock collars. The dogs lived with and were bonded to the handler. It would seem that after WWII much of this knowledge was lost.

It would appears that Schutzhund has changed from its beginnings. Those that would argue that point should pull out their copy of "The German Shepherd Dog in Word and Picture" and look at the incredible things those dogs could do. Of course, we have to read this book with the knowledge that the Germans of that time were careful not to divulge information that could be used by potential enemies. That is why the book is full of mis-information. This was deliberately done. Also, when one looks at the pictures in this book, you can see how the early German Shepherd's Dog was smaller than many seen today. They had nice straight backs and were agile. The malinois blood can be easily seen in these early dogs.

I gave read at this site that some dogs are labeled to have "fight" drive. By this do you mean the dogs are defensive? If this drive is so rare, then why are dogs that are not deemed to have "fight" drive bred? My perspective: A working dog for Police, military or home defense should be defensive when needed. It should be a laid back, thinking animal. It should not be bred to have this hyper drive for a stick, ball or rag. It should be trained as it will be worked, seriously. "Defense" drive I guess for those that prefer to describe dogs as having "drives". The dog should be capable of living with the handler's family and children. It should be protector and friend. The dogs of the past were protectors of home and hearth. They worked all day with the Shepherd. Communication was enough. The Shepherd needed no ball or kong.

In today's world, I see so much time lost by not training pups early. They should be started at age appropriate tasks at 6 weeks old. In the past, european military dogs were with the troops by 6 months old. Why have we gotten away from this? By 12 weeks, my female had been started in scent, agility and bitework. Agility began at 6 weeks. This can be done, and sucessfully.

I feel a part of the problem today is technology. A German farmer in 1912 did not need xrays to know if a pup should be culled due to a hip problem. He could tell by watching the dog work. No xray machine needed.

Genetics and training. This makes a good dog. You can not change what is.

I am encouraged to see more people separate working dogs from sporting dogs. Sport is fine. Sporting dogs and techniques should not be confused or mingled with real work. That can be very dangerous in the real world. An intruder that can distract a protection dog with a tennis ball is something for all to consider.

I look forward to reading the postings here. - Kent Iroler

Kent-

You have made some good points, and I agree with many of them. However, in a bite suit, you are always "stronger" than the dog. Talking about how you could have done this or that to the dog as he held on to the suit is neither fair, nor is it realistic. Even if the dog had fought your way, letting go and biting again, in the suit you still could defeat him. That is why the suits were made...To keep the decoy from getting hurt, and to train the dog to bite on the legs and body, not to enable him to beat on the dog.

Kent ,you are talking serious dogs,and how different these are from the sporting dog .A serious dog will work and punish with no prior training .Here lies the difference.I
must say such a dog is a liability and is
desired by very few .Have you many of this type .I to believe GSD is derived form mals
just nobody mentioned it.Yes there are lots
of surplus drives but the biggest one is neglected Belly drive !

on the subject of spotting hip dyslasia without x rays, sure you can notice it in the way the dog works, but what if it is only a calcium deposit, that can be removed and the dog will work fine? as for the bite work, the point of a police K9 in to aprehend the suspect, not kill him. thats why the dog is supposed to bite and hold, not kill and eat. the dog being focussed on the ball is a problem with training. you often see this problem when building drive and fisrt adding distractions, but you work through it. As for the drives, fight drive is a drive like any other, although it is most easily defined as a combination of the intensity of prey, with the confidence of prey (I'd like to thank Ed Frawley for that definition).

my mistake on that last definition : intensity of defense, with the confidence of prey... sorry

Ill respond to this even though I know some others could do a better job of it.First of all when you talk about the dog on your arm and what you could have done, thats not real convincing because in this equation your leaving out the pain that would be involved with out the sleeve when pain is involved not only does it hurt but there also goes your calm, cool, collective head for desicion making.Ill leave " fight drive" for Ed or someone else.But you almost answer your own question.Sport and PSD dogs are,in my opinion,two different things as far as the presence of drives,defense and the training.Sport dogs are not ready to go PSD dogs.The sport has its place as something to enjoy but also to perpetuate the desired lines of working dogs so they can be evaluated and from that we are able to better determine what will be used as PSD's.

This is not a criticism of you or you opinions Kent.

Do not mistake training method and techniques for dog ability. The best dogs for military, police, sport or otherwise are 100% prey driven dogs backed by 100% confidence you cannot hurt it. Clear in head and tractable to the handler.

Nothing has changed.

Back in the day of tiny mustaches and Bavarian accents, the dogs you believe were the kind of dogs that could kick ass and take names were not better.

You will have a hard time convincing me that evolution of the dog over the last 50 years has changed the working dog spirit so much that we cannot find equals in equal numbers now.

This is more for historical interest then anything else. Of 14,000 dogs shipped to Fort Robinson in 1942-46 for training only 2500 made it.

In Germany by the time World War II began Max von Stephanitz (regarded as the Father of the modern German Shepherd breed) and a group of colleagues already created the evaluation test for working police and military dogs.

The secret training was no secret. Standards for selection were well known in the dog arenas around the world. If the Germans did make purposeful errors in their manuals and not errors de-facto then it was a ineffective tactic. Again, just because we do not make our dog train past Hell’s Gates doesn’t mean we can’t. Think of a circus dog. These dogs did many tricks and most were compelled to perform with force back then. No regard to drives was needed because like the 14000 dogs in Robinson, the ones that could not pass did not survive.

The DOD has now very specific standards for dogs coming to them. They also train smarter not harder now. If you think a talented handler and good dog in today’s Army is no match in performance of the handlers of years back you are not creative enough. Because that is all it was, and would be, training creativity. Running LP/OP (listening patrol /observation patrol) with their dogs and a bunch of “What If?” scenarios to see if they could get the dogs to do it and break the monotony of the day.
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Another very old thread.