I hear you Brandon.This reason was exactly why I didn't start herding with my Rotties sooner than I did.I finally found a wonderful instructor that was willing to train other breeds that showed herding instinct.I srarted with my old Boy and when I purchased my Rottie pup it was just a given that I would be herding with her if she has what it takes.To me it is a breath of fresh air when you see a breed that you don't see alot of doing what is was long ago bred to do.Actualy I think it shows that the dog's line has not been watered down.How old is your Giant?I put my puppies in with sheep fairly soon after I get them just for fun although they learn so much on their own.We don't start instucting them until later.My puppy always watches the going-ons when we work the other dogs.

my pup is almost four months old. he has been great so far. his drive is coming along well. i did almost 2 years of research before i found a breeder i really liked. i am planning on trying him out on everything that a giant is supposed to be able to do. for fun i am going to see what all he is capable of. he is starting to lose teeth, so we are playing with some obedience, and i will be taking him to some farms to let him look at some cattle and goats and things. i have found some ranchers that would like to work with him, but i think it would be neat to compete for titles as well. i think it would be interesting to see some rotties working around here, there are a few.
brandon

I have seen some Giant's at some herding instinct tests in Canada (in canada any breed of dog can enter a herding trial as opposed to the U.S. )

Most of the dogs I have seen however have been from the show lines and not real impressive. (temperament overall was not impressive).

The biggest thing one has to take into consideration for testing young pups is thier prey drive and then the relationship that they owner has with thier dog. If the pup has good/great prey drive and the owner has no control, obedience etc on the pup then it is hard to do too much. If the trainer/tester is not used to upright breeds with these drives then their tendency may be to come down too hard (put way too much pressure) on a young pup. This can come in a variety of ways. If the instructor is not used to these kinds of breeds they may panic (which usually only excites the pup more), and/or even hit them hard with the stock stick. They can be afraid of the strong grips as well and may not want to see any gipping.

So, you can you ruin a good pup, just like you could if you or an agitator put too much pressure on a young pup in french ring or schH. If you use your stock stick as a 'weapon' then you will start to have other issues.

I have turned away a malinios pup from a herding instinct test. The pup (6 months old) had great drives, but the small woman owner had NO respect from the pup at all. After taking the pup into the round pen and trying to work it a bit on obedience it was very clear that the pup did not have any respect at this point for any human...it was going to get to the sheep no matter what. At this point, putting the pup on the sheep would not have been fair to the pup, or the sheep. The correction that one might have had to give the pup to stop it from doing damage to the sheep may not have been appropriate for a pup so young. Instead, the lady was told to go, work her dog in obedience, and start to have a relationship with it. Come back when the pup was older and could take more pressure without having to come down hard on it.

I had a standard poodle pup come out lately that I could not let off of the long line in the round pen. Its prey drive was unbeleiveable and its grips were very honest, placed correctly and very full! I talked to the owner for a bit. Sure, I could let the dog loose in my small round pen and catch it before it could do a lot of damage to the sheep but it would not be fair to the pup, sheep or the training process.

SO, to answer your question. I usually recommend that the pup be at least 6 months old. I ask what the owner wants to do with the pup/dog as far as training goes. I would explain my approach, what I would do , why I would do it depending on what I saw and how the pup worked. I would make sure that the sheep I used were used to all breeds of dogs and were appropriate according to the dog and its drives. For dogs with a lot of prey drive, confidence etc, I use hearvier (sheep that are not easily intimidated, do not panic, and will stay with the me as the tester). For dogs that lack confidence, prey drive I use lighter sheep. Sheep that over exaggerate thier movement when dogs are put on them. Will move at the slightest movment. This helps to stimulate the prey drive in dogs/pups that lack it. I don't use sheep that will fight the dog in either cases. Just not fair to the dog/pup.

Doing herding with your dog can go well with working them in ring and SchH. Brings out thier prey and the dog/pup learns to work as a team. Course a lot depends on the type of herding you are doing as well!!

I would be careful of just letting anybody work or test your dog.I would advise that you go to someone that is used to working with quite a few different breeds.I find also that herding really helps keep them nice and conditioned and I really saw their endurance increase especially in my old boy as he wasn't really into jogging and running around like he used to.With my young Kelpie,well,we get to sleep in the next morning after herding,it's the only thing that tires her out.

I'm sorry but what is the difference between cattle droving and livestock guarding? I always thought it was another way of say the same thing...
I don't mean to sound ironic in any way -I realised I made a big boo boo but could someone please explain the difference to me so that it don't make a fool of myself in the future?

All discriptions I have read seemed like its in effect the same thing (mostly keeping the big animals safe and in the same place)... nothing like herding where the dogs control the motion of the flock via whistles from very far away.
Do 'drovers' actually "herd" like sheep herders? Are they simply cattle "herders"?

thanks andy, and thanks shelley. i never gave any thought to a trainer picking the right sheep for the job...makes perfect sense though. i will keep looking, and make sure that my dog and the other animals are keep as far from harm as possible. my thoughts on the actual terms were this: herding, yes is probably more collie-like, keeping control of a flock, while guarding is more of a watching over them while they feed, sleep or whatever. a drover, i believe herds over long distances and guards as well. i could be wrong. most of the books i have read stated that the standard schnauzers were used to heard, but they bred the giants to heard larger animals like cattle.

Dogs bred to be livestock guardians live with thier flock of sheep day and night. They "tend" not to be overly social dogs to people. Their job is to live with the flock and protect them against preditors. The do not 'work' the sheep/livestock. Genetically, you want a dog that is gentle with the flock. Those that continually chase or grip the flock are culled. (not used).

Dogs that are bred for cattle droving are used to move cattle from one place to another usually by driving them. They are not bred necessarily to do 'gathering' work , which is what most people see dogs doing in border collie trials.
Gathering is when the dog goes out and brings the livestock to you. Driving is when the dog is moving livestock away from you but to a certain point or destination.

Corgi's are more of a droving breed as well. I think Bouviers are often put in this class too.

However, just because a breed has been bred for a certain job does not mean it cannot learn to do another job. Generally speaking, the job it was bred for should come more natural to it. So, can a droving dog work sheep and learn to gather...sure it can and in some cases it may be easier depending on the individual dog , its tempermaent and the livestock being worked.

Droving is very much a type of herding.

When we are talking about the European continental herding and guarding breeds we are talking about these dogs (basically)

GSDs
Belgains (mal, groen, Terv)
Bouvs
Giants
Rotts
and a few others like the Beauceron

Each one was formed from various herding and farmdog stock. Very different from what you may think of as herding, certainly not border collie type of herding. Droving and tending have their own style and require a different dog. These shepherds or cowherds also needed dogs that could protect them from bad guys. (more often humans than animals)

Drovers work a herd in a certain way. But it is just a different type of HERDING. They push the cattle around, keep them together, protect them and the owner from theives (and the very rare chance of predators), etc.

On the other hand you have dogs that are also tenders, like the GSD. They help facilitate a certain type of sheep tending where the shepherd has to graze his sheep in a restrictive way in agricultural areas. They keep the sheep feeding in certain areas, and help the shepherd move them to other areas. (as well as guard against other dogs, theives, and the very rare predator)

I think someone else really pegged what a livestock guarding is, that work requires a different dog with different traits.

When you think of Anatolians, Maremma (sp?), Pyrenean Mastiffs, etc, that is a very different type of dog. Nothing like the Euro herding/guarding breeds.

You like prey drive to train with? Those dogs don't have a whole helluva lot of it. And all that bunk about protecting without training. . .well that's gonna depend on your definition of protecting.