I'm interested in what goes into building you're own bloodline. For instance you see many kennels that are known for certain bloodlines. How did they get started building or turning an existing (origional)bloodline into their own? How long does this process take?

I put off answering this post, hoping someone further along in the process would respond! But here's my 2 cents...

For someone to be recognized for their bloodlines, they have to be producing a recognizable "type". Either in conformation, temperament, trainability, or some combination of these. So, usually you are talking about an established, experienced kennel.

When you start out, you select dogs from one or more breeders that are very close to what you are wanting to produce. Why start farther from your goal than you have to? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> But then you have to establish what YOU produce by reliably breeding pups of the "type" you want. THAT is the hard part!!

Usual practices for producing consistnacy in a line is linebreeding/inbreeding. This reduces the possible genes the pups can recieve, thus setting the "type". The difficulty lies in trying to set that type without undesirable recessives rearing their ugly heads! Any time you go outside your line to bring in fresh blood to improve your lines, you run the risk of bringing in NEW faults and diluting the type you are producing. You could well end up with a few SPECTACULAR dogs, but you will most likely end up with a few HORRIBLE examples as well! That's what it means to widen out the bell curve. More variation, some great & some poor.

So, the answer is that you can only be know for YOUR type/bloodlines once you have ESTABLISHED a type! Otherwise you are known for haveing a dog of someone else's bloodlines that someone might want to use. It takes years, numerous litters, trial & error, and luck!

Glenn,

In my opinion, Beth covered it pretty well.
I think also to establish your own line, it requires more than just a handfull of dogs. A line that's your own implies to me that it is at least a "semi closed" program, and that YOUR dogs consistently differ in some way from the dogs that you started out with, or currently use (outside your lines). Even if the only difference is the level of consistency within a litter.

Eds "foster home" program sounds like by far the best method I have ever seen or heard of.
It offers him a much larger selection, without having to go outside of his own line.(kudos to you Ed, no doubt the breed is in good hands with you)

Beth, you're examples/analogies give me a better picture as to what is needed to develop you're own bloodline but I am still a little unclear about something. Establishing a "TYPE" still has me shaking my head. For example, we both agree with starting off with dogs from a breeder that comes closest to what (TYPE) you are wanting to produce. Here's the confusing part for me.

Beth says: But then you have to establish what YOU produce by reliably breeding pups of the "type" you want. THAT is the hard part!!

How are you going to produce a "DIFFERENT" type of dog than what you bought from the core breeder you started out with. If you only have a male and a female from this breeder how in the world are you going to ever get dogs with a different type than what you started out with? "YOURE OWN" line!To me this would be impossible and a person would only be reproducing the other breeders dogs. The only way I see you could do this is to take another chance and go outside the bloodline you started with and on and on and on. Does this make sense? This is kinda what Jason is saying I think but he has me confused when he says you need to have a closed program. BAsically to me this means that you would have bought all you're dogs (SEVERAL) bitches and a couple of studs and then not allow anymore bloodlines into you're program. Then you would by breeding this dog to that dog and so on start to build you're own line. In this way you would hope to get a different type of dog than what you started out with. How in the world are you ever going to know that until these dogs mature? They will probably look so similar to what you started out with that I'm still shaking my head. This is so intereting to me. Make sense? I'll await some more answers on this XMAS day!

MERRY XMAS to everyone!

Glenn

Glenn,

You can definately change the type of dog you are producing over generations. This is what selective breeding is often about.

Ed has what I would call a "semi closed" program, the effects of which you will see in the consistency of type in his line. If I'm not mistaken, he rarely goes outside his line for a brood bitch. He can choose from hundreds of bitches trough his "foster home" program. This is an exceptional tool in building a bloodline because the less of a selection you have to choose from, the more luck is required to make progress.

My guess is, ONE of the reasons he doesn't do the same with a foster stud program is because he can choose from thousands of stud dogs, going outside his line, rather than only selecting from hundreds while staying inside his line. To maintain a truely closed system and make progress with a breed you would probably need to keep thousands of dogs, and breed them in many different directions.

Sounds to me like the average middle aged person could not think about doing something like this unless you have a "ZILLION" dollars and about twenty years of practice. I imagine that most kennels you see on the net or anywhere else for that matter DO NOT have their own line of dogs. Hopefully Beth and others will chime in here.

Merry XMAS or whatever you Celebrate!

I think many breeders start out with dogs from a few different breeders that have the same type, but different bloodlines. That way, you have dogs that have MANY traits in common, but you can have dogs that do not have the same "weak points". Many established lines have certain faults that are predominant, say for example, poor feet or need more length in the upper arm. If you find another line that is very similar in type but is know for producing GOOD feet, or has correct length of arm to match the weaknesses of the other line, you will get pups that are of similar type, but hopefully you will KEEP the ones that have all the good traits! That's where being good at judging puppies comes in!

If you are wanting to be known for YOUR line, yes, you will need to put in a lot of time/effort/money, but that does not mean that you cannot begin producing excellent pups, with similar type, with ONE bitch if you select the male properly. It is just that THAT does not establish your own distinctive line. MOST good breeders are better known for producing high-quality pups than for having established a distinctive line, I think. Of course, MOST breeders do this as a hobby becuase they love the breed. They cannot necessarily make a full-time job out of it!

Good luck in your breeding efforts, if you decide to get into it! It takes lots of skill and knowledge, but luck still plays a big role in something as complex as breeding. If you check out my website, and look at the "resources" page, I have some excellent books listed that will help you gain the "knowledge" part of the equation! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Beth you're second post help fill in the blanks for me. I appreciate you taking the time to help me understand more about this topic.