Quote:

Originally posted by wismz:
. . . Hemophilia is a recisive gene. It is not caused by inbreeding. . . Since the disease is passed on by women, you would simply allow them not to breed.

Hemophilia is a sex-linked disease meaning that it is carried on the X chromosome. Males are symptomatic when they carry it because they only have one X chromosome. The female carrier can be asymptomatic because she has a second X chromosome that, if it is not also carrying the gene, can prevent the expression of the gene on the other X chromosome.

 Quote:

Originally posted by wismz:
. . . But this is a royal family so that (not allowing them to breed) wouldn't work.

Excuse me while I <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> ! What are "popular" studs? If titles make "royalty", what is a "champion"? Look up Canto von der Wienerau and see how widely he spread the disease before it was noticed <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> . BTW Canto was a male .

 Quote:

Originally posted by wismz:
. . . In dogs if some recesive gene pops up you can breed it out of them, using linebreeding.

At what cost?? Stig has explained very well the price of narrowing the gene pool by too much close breeding. Close breeding decreases diversity in the overall gene pool. It is genetic diversity that actually offers the greatest protection against the most harmful recessives. In fact, many really lethal genes are often linked (or closely connected) with the most beneficial genes (this is how the lethal genes survive to be passed on) which means that if you select for the best, you may also get the worst and not know it until it has inadvertantly been widely spread by in/line-breeding. Genetic diversity is Nature's method of keeping the bad recessives under control. Sure, you don't eliminate unwanted recessives completely because you can't without limiting the genetic diversity too much -- but you can keep them from being expressed by safeguarding the diversity.

OK Stig - you have voiced your opinion on this. It's not necessary to post to this thread again. I said before - you have a lot to learn about breeding. You are also wrong on this issue. Any serious breeder needs to line breed. Many dogs should not be bred, many dogs should not be line bred on. Just because it is a male does not make it a stud dog. Just because a dog has been bred does not make it a stud dog. A stud dog passes more good genes than bad genes to his pups. Obviously dogs that are line bred who pass on more bad qualities than good qualities are not top stud dogs (most dogs fall into this catagory)

Dogs like Grief zum Lahntal and Bernd Leierburg are great dogs to line breed on - I have done it for years and more times than I can remember in the 280 plus litters I have bred over the past 25 years.

Like most things, there is no single right answer to this issue. Breeding is a balance of techniques. To say "this is the only way to do it" is going to be a flawed attitude. It takes a combination of line breeding and out crosses to maintain healthy stock. People that are successful long term with breeding will use combinations of line breeding and out crossing. I know of no breeder that maintains high quality dogs for any purpose that doesn't use both techniques in their breeding program. The art to it is deciding when to use which technique and what dogs to use in the lines.

Over representation by any one dog in a line will probably lead to problems. It is possible to improve your dogs by using some line breeding. Proper selection of out crosses can also be used to improve the lines. I guess my point is that it takes a combination of both line breeding and out crossing to maintain the qualities desired in dogs.

Ed,

It´s not my own personal thoughts I have posted here, to say that one of the top geneticans in the world who been involved with breedings of domestic animals and dogs for over 40 years and succesfully helped breeds with problems(due to much overusing of specific studs) have a lot to learn about breeding I think is a lack of respect.
I haven´t said that all males make good stud dogs, my point is that breeders all over the world concentrate on a few when there is more to choose from. No studs are free from hidden defected genes that you can´t know of, not even Grief or Bernd, if they get to much influence in the genepool it´s not a good thing.
No single breeder could have enough dogs so he could avoid to much inbreeding, he is dependent on other breeders to. When other breeders also breed on similar lines, that is often the case, you are forced to do inbreeding even if you want or not and this will lead to problems sooner or later. Look at the workingdobes, 3-4 studs are in almost every pedigree, often on both sides, and still some use intensive linebreeding in this breed. All health problems that depends on a smaller and smaller genepool are not coming right away, but we have a responsibility to keep the health on good levels in a breed, not only during our lifetime, but hopefully in the future to. It´s obvious that many diseases today are the result of bad breedingprogramms, where overusing of studs are the most common misstake. In a perfect world breeders with the same goals should cooperate to make sure that no single studs are being overused. As an example, lets say that we have 20 breeders of working GSDs in a country, if they should cooperate they should have many studs to choose from, so the genetic variation is on good levels, and could use selective breeding for strong character which will make the breed stronger and stronger for each generation, then the police and workingdog people would have access to enough good dogs, and the problems with lack of good servicedogs in many countries would be avoided. Linebreeding only works temporarly, you still need to outcross so why use it? When many breeders have the same goal and a carefully planned breedingprogramm, like I described above, then maybe some carefully planed linebreeding could be done, but as the situation looks in many breeds today, the genetic variation is to small to do this. And anyone that don´t belive that you can use selective breedings for workingtraits without linebreeding, all animals in nature shows that it works, if not, they shouldn´t be so succesfull as they are. Think about that <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I miss Vince... This is OFF TOPIC. The original topic was frozen semen, not line and inbreeding.

Yes you can use the frozen semen to do that, but that is not the only purpose of frozen semen.

Stig, While I applaud your insistance on being "right" :rolleyes: you are now at the point of beating a dead horse. We know what your opinion is, you know what ours is.

Opinions are like a$$holes, everybody's got one, and I am stuck with mine. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

And us Schnauzer folks have to stick together!!!

You are right it is way off topic.