Nice to see you still lurking around the board Lou.

Lou Wrote:"There’s nothing wrong with “low bites” in a PPD or a police service dog. Both will stop a suspect until the handler can get to the scene and assist his dog. Higher bites, especially where a dog launches at the decoy, are “crowd pleasers” but unless a dog slows down and goes straight up, are easy to dodge. A real crook with a blunt object or a knife can easily hurt your dog. I’d suggest that you lose the hidden sleeve and get a suit. Try the Rocasport or the Freddy. Both can be custom made with any degree of protection that you like and both let you move realistically, drive a car or ride a bicycle."

Thank's buddy, I did lose the sleeve and I have a suit. That, and the muzzle, are the only pieces of equipment that we use.

I didn't say there was anything wrong with Low-Bites either. I loved 'em, just didn't want my buddy taking a nut shot while wearing a silly hidden sleeve, that is why we don't use them. I think I said someing about that in my post. I also said that I have a suit and use it.

Sometimes I think I am being ignored. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I do have a question for you Lou. What type of muzzle do you think is best, and how safe do you think it is to do attacks where there is no close support for the decoy.

We always used two people in our senarios. My brother and myself. I would have my brother set up real close to the decoy and I would always send the dog with a leash on. Just in case.

The pucker factor was a little bit much for us amateurs. I would like to be able to train off leash area searches for my next PPD on muzzle. I would like to be able to send the dog for a bite into my yard or courtyard. Pretty big area.

I'd cut and paste what most everyone else has said here..especially Lou...so I'll just be quiet..I think...

And yes, you should have seen the room of 30+ handlers when I was up speaking about targeting and opened my big mouth on the subject. To my own defense, Lou set me up by asking "Josh, what do you think about hidden sleeves..."..LOL...man can we clear a room or what..

I agree with Lou and Josh. I cannot imagine why I would train w/a hidden sleeve for muzzle work. Yes Josh, they did use muzzles 30+ yrs ago--Ha! A good suit, like those stated, give good mobility and protection. They lessen the risk of targeting out of habit by the decoy, especially if one is new at it. I think low biters definitely can do the job. An apprehension to the shins and knees etc. can cause some serious attitude adjustment. It forces the bad guy to bend down and take his eyes off the handler. This is IMHO based on what I observed by street officers and their k9 partners. Not knowing about PSD's, I am sure that there are those who have far more experience in these matters. Please stay safe and always be worthy of your dog! Humbly Dr. L. :rolleyes:

We used to combine the hidden sleeve with muzzle work. After the dog fought the suspect, the handler would slip off the muzzle.

IMHO hidden sleeves should never be used frequently enough so that the dog becomes aware of the equipment.

Yes, they can encourage a shallow bite... but an advanced dog should not have too much trouble in this regard.

Also, a good agitator will learn to shift the arm so that the dog can get a better grip after the initial bite... and yes, with a good dog the hidden sleeve does hurt... I used to come home with tennis ball sized bruises.... ah... the good ol days.

Hey there Doc...don't let his modest post fool ya..he might have been around the block a few times..and then some, but yo DO know what your talkin about. Now if I could just figure out where you got muzzles big enough to fit the Dinos that you had to work with back in the Jurassic Period of K9 handling...LOL

On a side note and to get back to topic...I think it's CRITICAL if you are counting on the muzzle to proof reality, you must follow Lou's suggestions. If the dog learns that muzzle ='s manwork, there is no point in doing muzzle work if your idea is proofing off equipment. In fact the muzzle becomes just as much of a load as a sleeve or suit. I also believe many good training decoys/trainers can "feel" if a dog is for real or is a suit monster. By feel I don't mean bite pressure. It is a combination of the dogs body posture, attitude, eyes, and many other combinations that will let you know if that dog is really fighting the man in the suit, or the fabric you have on.

I also use a full hidden suit and have found it to work well if you set the situations up correctly. Many times I have handlers meet up for training while on shift(they use lunch breaks, etc) and do some training. We meet somewhere away from the facility at a specific time and run a situation as any normal call. It eliminates the dog uploading by pulling in my driveway or being around other dogs. If you don't think they "know" they're going for training, we're kidding ourselves...LOL Many times we doing building searches or MV stops and the hidden suit works really well here. A baggy pair of jeans and a 2-3x shirt and you are good to go. I've also just put on jeans and a tank top over the jacket. The jacket is white so the shirt almost makes it look like it is all you have on in a way. We've also been able to put a larger bite jacket on over the hidden jacket. By doing this, when the dog grabs the first jacket, you can peel it off and keep running. If the dog has correct man focus, they drop it and engage again. This is really important for us during the winter when many times the suspects real jacket is bulky enough so they don't really feel the bite. They also tend to get out of their jackets when the dogs engage. It's important to teach the dog that this will happen. Another reason why I don't like sleeve work. Even though you can shed one sleeve and do the same drill, you still must present a sleeve. I've yet to see any human in reality run with a arm let waving behind them for a dog to grab a hold of..
Just my long winded 2 cents...