Am I the only one who believes that a decoy should be vocal when decoying a fully trained PPD dog?

If we're to make the training as real as possible then I believe the decoy should be yelling at the dog and yelling "NO!" and when the dog actually bites the decoy should scream in pain and so forth. I am inclined to believe that a real life encounter with a home invader, for example, might be very vocal.

I bring this up because I used a local Schutzhund decoy (who also claims to do some PPD decoying) and the guy made very little vocalization and actually praised my dog for biting him. And then he wanted to slip the sleeve and I told him not to do so as my dog was not trained that way and would spit it out and retarget on him. I also told him I didn't want him praising my dog (again, this is a fully trained PPD, not a young dog) but rather yelling at him, etc. But he wouldn't do it. He said he's never done that.

He also told me that my dog needs a "calm, firm grip". I told him I agree with the firm part but I didn't know about the "calm" part. The reality is that, with a PPD, a life or death encounter is likely to be decided in a matter of seconds. I want my dog to go in fast and hard and to bite the living bejeebers out of the perp. Maybe all this talk of "calm" is semantics but I don't think anybody is going to be calm if someone is coming through their front door in the middle of the night. If that happens the fight between the dog and the perp is going to be loud, violent and over, one way or the other, quickly.

That's what I want my dog trained to handle. And so I feel that the training should simulate the real deal, meaning a lot of noise and screaming, fighting and ultimately the decoy losing not by giving the dog a sleeve (sorry, wouldn't end that way in a real fight), but rather by physically and vocally submitting in defeat or perhaps running away having been thoroughly beaten.

But I'm not preaching gospel here. I've only owned 1 working dog in my entire life so I'm just an enthusiast, not an expert. So I humbly submit my above-stated view and ask for some feedback. Thanks in advance. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Patrick gets it.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
< Will nods with approval >

Just from observing the TD/helper at my club, he has a completely different look and attitude when he works a couple of the local PSDs. The practiced foot work and vocalizing he does as a trial helper goes out the door. He looks and sounds like a complet madman, with the dog and the LEO handlers. Fun to watch all the different scenarios set up for the dog PSD dogs.

Good thoughts, but the only question that pops up in my mind is that maybe the decoy had some thoughts about the quality of the dog or the developmental stage the dog is at in training. He could have thought what he was doing for the dog was the better thing.


I think that dogs need a correct basic foundation prior to serious PP work.

Good point Robert. But it certainly wasn't an issue of what my dog was or was not doing. He was on him fast and hard; there was no avoidance issues, etc.

My complaint was that the decoy wasn't giving my dog enough of a challenge. The probable reality was that the decoy really didn't know how to work a PPD dog. He may be fine for Schutzhund but that's not PPD.

Anyway Robert, I take it then that you agree that a PPD dog should be worked with some screaming and some reality. Is that correct? Again, I'm not talking about a dog in training; I'm talking about a finished product.

I ask these questions because I'm trying to make sure that I'm not the one missing something here. Thanks again to everyone for the helpful feedback. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Yes, I agree that scenario training for a PPD should be as realistic as possible.


Yelling, giving commands, and generally pitching a fit are nice, but honestly the things that I really want to see more are major distractions around the decoy, biting different types of equipment and clothing, and a very intimidating decoy.


Distractions are a big one for me, the more distractions the dog can be exposed to and work through, the better. Also the more environments and different locations you can work in the better.

I rarely have problems with the dog being willing to eat someone with the dogs that I choose for PP work. More often I want to make sure they have the obedience in protection work necessary for good control and are capable of working in different environments. Also another problem, and not one I've experienced but one that I've taken from talking to different K9 officers who have had real depoyments, is that their dogs had some issues inicially biting bare skin and different types of clothes. So I try to use hidden sleeves or even just leather gauntlets to expose the dog to biting as many different types of surfaces as possible.

(Leather gauntlets are the closest you can get to what it feels like to bite skin, BTW. And you better have a nice decoy who doesn't mind taking a few nasty bruises for the team. LOL)


Then of course you have to get the dog ready for a conflict where he isn't going to win it easy. (I really like the confidence that groundfighting builds in a dog who has some good fight in them, gets them ready for what could realistically happen to them in a fight with a human.)


There are a lot of things. Exposure to as many situations and decoys as possible is the real key IMO.

That sounds like excellent information Robert. That's what makes this a great board. Thanks again.