That makes sense. It also would seem that the competition dogs were probably picked based more on aggression than they are today. A high prey dog being one of the top traits selected for now.

 Quote:

Originally posted by Michael Talyor Rivers:
I rarley see a dog in protection today, as strong as the earlier dogs. They are out there, but there are not 30 or 40 in a big trial in Germany or here in the States.

DVG ...see a dog that bites 3/4 as a dog with good fighting instincts, but the SV judges,(for the most part) see this as a fault today.

I think there are plenty of strong dogs being bred today, but they are not being selected for the sport by serious competitors becuz the scoring criteria has become so tight. Precision, control, and animated obedience are required to score high today; not so 2 decades ago. A dog that would V in the 80's would typically score quite low today. Hard, dominant, aggressive dogs often lack the willing, animated work that is valued today. That's why you don't see 30 or 40 of them in a trial - it's not that they aren't out there.

I disagree with the statement that DVG finds a dog with a 3/4 grip to be a good fighting dog and scoring it thus. My take on that is that DVG has to suck up to all different breeds, including many that are not well suited to the sport and many that do not have the 'genetic grip' that the sport GSD has, so they have to be more lenient in their scoring in order not to piss off their membership.

Remember, a lot of the differences in the performances you are seeing onthe field are due to the changes in the TRAINING as well as the genetic material we are working with. Dogs used to be worked strongly in defense and with real aggression from the helper; the reed stick was used, and the dog really was taught to come thru significant pressure. He viewed the helper as a real adversary who could hurt him. Thus the dog showed more overt aggression towards the man. The byproduct of that training was often a less than calm, full grip, and that will kill your points today. So people have devised new training methods to produce the "picture" that the judge wants. Judging drives the training styles that are in vogue.

And let's not forget the strong public pressures in Europe against biting dogs. That has also had significant impact on the judging and training. We don't feel it over here, but it is very real over there.

Hear the same thing, Ban laws in Europe have anyone involved in bitework afraid of the public impression. Might as well call it hunting instead of protection. Look to the new PP sports I'm sure we'll see quality protection sport dogs springing from there. Too bad schutz is a great sport but I think breeding robots seems to be the new priorty of a lot of schut groups. Hope I didn't step on any biscuit biting toes. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

SCH3FH wrote:
I think there are plenty of strong dogs being bred today, but they are not being selected for the sport by serious competitors becuz the scoring criteria has become so tight. Precision, control, and animated obedience are required to score high today; not so 2 decades ago. A dog that would V in the 80's would typically score quite low today. Hard, dominant, aggressive dogs often lack the willing, animated work that is valued today. That's why you don't see 30 or 40 of them in a trial - it's not that they aren't out there.

Michael writes :

I am not too sure that there are enough strong dogs being bred today. One has to only look at the difficulty in finding a good prospect for a PSD.
Also I do see your point in the changes that have been made in terms of the whole schutzhund routine, and what alot of judges look for today. The fact remains that while there may not be a lot of hard dogs-there are not alot of top dogs being entered or scoring by todays standard. There is rarley more then 15 V rated dogs in the BSP. Then when you look at the lower scoring dogs, they are more then often too weak, not too strong to score big points. It really is not that hard to get into the BSP when you consider today that most LGA's on average only have 1 V rated dog in thier championship. If you have a dog that is scoring on average high 280's, you are pretty much going to get to the BSP. Years before that was not the case, and it was the best of the best type deal. Today, by our newer standards there is no longer a lot of high performance dogs in any trial. The dogs that are scoring low are in most cases doing so because they are weak, not because they are too strong.

SCH3FH wrote:
I disagree with the statement that DVG finds a dog with a 3/4 grip to be a good fighting dog and scoring it thus. My take on that is that DVG has to suck up to all different breeds, including many that are not well suited to the sport and many that do not have the 'genetic grip' that the sport GSD has, so they have to be more lenient in their scoring in order not to piss off their membership.

Michael Writes:

I do agree that thier is a suck-up factor involved, but at the sametime you do not have to have the back-molar biting machine in order to V-rate in DVG. A dog that is fighting hard and not biting really full, will not be banged for not bitng full, and will most likley be commented on its fighting instincts not banged points for fighting. I do not see Malinois yet facing the same lack of aggression problems that the GSD does.

SCH3FH wrote:
And let's not forget the strong public pressures in Europe against biting dogs. That has also had significant impact on the judging and training. We don't feel it over here, but it is very real over there.

Michael Writes:

I think this is the problem with why the dogs lack aggression. But there still are not alot of dogs performing today by our standards, as thier was in the past by thier time's standards.

...there are not alot of top dogs being entered or scoring by todays standard. There is rarley more then 15 V rated dogs in the BSP.

Again, this is not a function of the quality of the dogs or the training. It is a function of the technical nature of the scoring today. The judges have raised the bar tremendously, that's why you don't see 30 V-rated dogs. Not cuz the caliber of dogs/trainers has decreased. In plain english, the judges gave away V scores waaayyyy more easily 20 yrs ago; THAT'S why you saw a ton of V's. It wasn't realistic.