DOes anybody out there know anything about bloodlines / pedigrees, etc.? I am buying a puppy and will have her in February. The pup sounds awesome to me but I just want to make really sure that the genes are good and since I know less than nothing about bloodlines and such here is what I know about the parents: Mother is titled ZVV1, KKL1, A Hips. (I also don't know what KKL1 is...) She is a granddaughter of Dark Gymor and (hope I am spelling this right) Venusina Sopka Breeding. That is all I could get off of the pedigree (which appears to be in some other language anyway) The father is titled ZM (Don't know what that means) SCH2, SVV3 (I think this is a big deal because the breeder is quite proud of it) and she says that he has a Breed Test of 5/55. (I also don't know what that is. I think that the SVV3 is similar to Schutzhund...?? He is the Grandson of
Car z Kostolianskej. The pup is supposed to have strong Czech blood (I'm pretty sure this is good but don't know how it differs from the German dogs as far as working ability goes) So, please, somebody comment! Thanks for the time. Jennie

Can you post a link to the breeder's website? Then people could look at the pedigree.

There are a number of people who like to follow pedigrees and you might get some extra helpful info.

I'm always more worried about the parents than the pedigree, but the genes are important as well.

Here is the web site for the kennel I am buying my pup from http://www.vonzoellerkennels.com For some reason it is not turning blue like a link; I thought it would after I typed it. Anyway, I don't know how to make it a link you click on. But the parents' pedigrees are there. It is Flame and Gaston. I think it is an awesome site. Also has videos of some of the dogs working. I know there are a ton of videos of Gaston. And I think that they might have x-rays on some of them too but I have never looked to see if Flam or Gaston's was there. Wouldn't know what I was looking at anyway. Thanks for the reply. http://www.vonzoellerkennels.com

Interesting bloodlines, but what I tend to find more interesting is there is very little information on who is selling the dogs (i.e. none).

The website's e-mail contacts are Hotmail accounts, that's not always a good sign.

Before I would consider a puchase from this kennel, I would visit them in person. If that's not an option I'd find a handful of people who know this person and have some information about them.

Beyond those normal concerns when buying dogs (the dog business is a hard one on the inexperienced consumer), I don't see anything that impresses me about the videos of the stud Gaston. Very flat obedience and very blah bitework. Of course the video quality is crappy and I didn't get sound.


The dog is linebred on Lord, which isn't terrible. I like to see Bob Cega in a bloodline as well. The pedigree doesn't suck.

I don't have experience with dogs out of Car, so I can't comment much about the pedigree.

I am so surprised!! I was thoroughly impressed with Gaston's videos, but then, if the dog is biting at all, I probably would be. I just don't know what to look for I guess. I was so taken with Gaston that I turned down the pups from Ibo (another stud there) because I wanted a puppy specifically from Gaston. I thought he was the best of the bunch. And after I read about the Czech dogs I thought that was a good thing too. Oh, what to do... Curious about one thing: It seems that when someone is looking at the parents the sire / stud, whatever you call him carries more weight (i.e. people may much more attention to the father) Is this true? If so what is the reason? Are the pups any more likely to take after the father than the mother? The few responses or opinions I have gotten from people seem to center around Gaston; Flame (the mother) seems to be nearly irrelevant. Just wondering. And now I am wondering what to do about this pup too...

One more thing... Did you have an opinion on Flame's pedigree at all? Would you be concerned that she has fewer titles than Gaston? Is it true that few dogs get the SVV3 title? (I read that on the web site for the kennel) If that is true then how did Gaston get one if his bite work is cruddy and his obedience sucks? (Not disputing your opinion of the video, just wondering, if the dog does mediocre work, how did it get the title(s)...) Okay, I guess that is more than one thing after all. Once I get going it is tough to stop. Too many ?s I guess. Thanks for the reply! It was the only one I got. Jennie

It is easier to follow the stud line in dogs because they produce more dogs than females (they are usually bred to many females) and they are usually the ones being shown in trials. So looking at the sire lines often gives more information than the dam lines.

A ZVV3 isn't a guarantee of greatness, but it does say something positive about the dog. He beat out a number of other dogs to get it.

I like the female's pedigree more than I do Gastons. She's about 1/4th West German working lines and goes back on one of the Czech dogs I really like to see, Cordon An-Sat.

I would not be worried that the female has fewer titles, I'd be worried about how she works and what her temperament is like.

Just keep in mind that pedigree isn't everything, and it isn't anything if the pup's parents suck. LOL

Jennie,
I agree with everything VanCamp said.
In many ways I favor Flame's pedigree to Gaston's as well. Like Robert said, its more about the individual strengths and weaknesses of each parent, than it is about their pedigrees. To me pedigree is abour 3rd on my list.
1. The character of each parent.
2. The production record (if any) of each parent.

Granted, this is under ideal circumstances. The pedigree is a good place to start, but I wouldn't end there.

A few things about this kennel that raise a flag for me is that they kind of showed up out of the blue, the people's names are not on the website, and they are advertising 5-6 litters in the most recent Schutzhund USA magazine. None of these things are deal breakers, but I'd be asking a lot of questions to verify the goals and knowledge base of the breeders. They seem to have very nice dogs in general, but don't be dazled by the titles, Czech vs German, etc....

Thanks you guys! I am so glad to find people who know this much about bloodlines and things. I haven't seen the parents yet but I guess that in the end of the whole thing, the bottom line is that I am new to this and when I see the parents I will have no idea about the quality of their work, all I will see is how they are cared for and then of course the pups. I am not going to be able to learn in such a short time how to judge the work these dogs do when it is something I haven't done before. I have been reading up on how to see if the pup is a good candidate for Schutzhund. But what I really want is a dog that will also be good for personal protection. Schutzhund is the place to start with that I guess so I hope what I read would also apply to choosing a personal protection dog. Anyway, it is going to be a gamble no matter how I look at it because I just don't know enough. That said, unless I go to the kennel and there's something really wrong (it would have to be really wrong for me to see it) I'm going to buy this puppy. The pedigree isn't terrible and it seems people don't put much stock in that anyway. I'm going to see if I get some advice on any way to evaluate the parents, since both should be on site. A lot of the kennels I found, I couldn't even afford to deal with. I think this one is reasonable. So, I'm going to buy this pup and hope for the best, unless I see reason not to. If anybody has suggestions for evaluating the parents I would love to hear it. Thanks for your input, guys. As long as the pedigree 'doesn't suck' that's good enough for me. (I don't plan to be going to world competitions with her anyway, I just want to get started training and my big goals right now are 1) to train the dog in personal protection, and 2) it would be such a thrill to put a title on it (Sch1) Maybe I can do that with this pup... Jennie

Hi Jennie
i saw Flame in person ,very protective dog
And i know Xenia from them in person and from work.
She s a dog i can recommend,very good worker SchH3 and FH,large very substanceful female and super character in house ,people,kids,but yet very protective in work.No goofball!
Maybe it helps.
Bye Jutta